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Was Martin abused by Sabbath?

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  • racer
    replied
    Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
    So the fact that he had a choice means that there's not even a chance that his multiple exits should have been handled with the class befitting a skilled, hard-working employee? Employers are justified in treating their employees however they like when the employee chooses to be there and take it repeatedly? I disagree with your logic and feel like you are absolving Iommi of any responsibility for actions that the vast majority of people think were questionable at best. I know you are a great admirer of Tony, but like you and me both, he hasn't always behaved well as an individual.
    All I'm saying is that he didn't have to keep coming back; nobody held a gun to his head. The gig must not have been that bad, and he obviously had nothing better to do to or he would have been doing it. But he was compensated ... so I wouldn't go so far as to say he was "abused." Could he have been treated better ... perhaps, but that's hindsight and I wasn't there. It appears he may not have been treated properly given his loyalty ... but were we there? If he was treated so poorly, why did he keep coming back?

    That's the key ... he kept coming back. Nobody should take abuse from anemployer ... but he kept coming back. Obviously he didn't feel things were too bad at the time, so who are we to look back in hindsight and try to paint some ugly picture of it now?

    Like I said, I admire his loyalty. And the Martin era of Black Sabbath produced some of my favorite music. But was he "abused"? Let me ask you ... do you go back to an employer time and time again who abuses you? My guess is the answer is "no." So I would say Martin probably wasn't "abused" by Sabbath, either.
    Last edited by racer; 10-23-2010, 10:58 PM.

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  • fondula
    replied
    Originally posted by David86 View Post
    And probably no contract either!
    Hahaha
    Anyway, I'm not trying to bring up the whole "should it be considered Sabbath" thing because it has the name, it is Sabbath, the end. I am just trying to say that MAYBE if the Martin stuff had a different "brand" then Martin might not have kept getting replaced (maybe there would have instead been "breaks" where everyone went off and did other things under other names), and maybe the long-term relationship would have ended up in better shape.
    But maybe not, who the hell knows. Things transpired as they did for many reasons.
    Last edited by fondula; 09-29-2010, 11:02 AM.

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  • unplugged-unfretted
    replied
    IMO - it hurt BS to re-hire martin again and again, under those circumstances. I mean, if you get rid of a singer cuz you got someone who you think will be better for the band... then that doesn't work out, then you re-hire the old guy --- the message this sends out is that you are going backwards. It also doesn't speak well for the old guy - and a front man in the RnR business needs to be a damb strong character to command such respect.

    Personally, I agree that Iommi could have thought this one out a lot more carefully.

    IMO it would have been better to either:
    1) stick with Martin
    2) ...or once dropped Martin - NOT taken him back (at least NOT again under the BS name)

    ....but at the end of that day, my feeling is that it could have been called something different right from the beginning with Martin.

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  • J Hillenburg
    replied
    Originally posted by racer View Post
    Tony Martin was not "abused" by Sabbath. He was a contractor who did a job ... nobody held a gun to his head to keep coming back. If he had better things to do he would have been doing them.
    So the fact that he had a choice means that there's not even a chance that his multiple exits should have been handled with the class befitting a skilled, hard-working employee? Employers are justified in treating their employees however they like when the employee chooses to be there and take it repeatedly? I disagree with your logic and feel like you are absolving Iommi of any responsibility for actions that the vast majority of people think were questionable at best. I know you are a great admirer of Tony, but like you and me both, he hasn't always behaved well as an individual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ray Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by David86 View Post
    And probably no contract either!
    Thats right.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    hey

    im gerade neu in diesem Forum...

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  • David86
    replied
    Originally posted by fondula View Post
    if the band had been called something else, there wouldn't have been pressures/ideas to "get back Dio", "get back Ozzy", "get ALL the original guys back together", "get rid of Tony Martin", etc,
    And probably no contract either!

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  • fondula
    replied
    It occurs to me that perhaps Mr. Martin was the victim of being in a band called Black Sabbath, within which there is a certain amount of pressure to "be Black Sabbath". After listening to stuff like G//Z/R and "Kiss of Death" recently, and reading some of the interviews with Geezer from around the time that the first G//Z/R album came out (Geezer said something along the lines of being "Deep Purple Mark 10" and having nothing to do with the original idea of Black Sabbath), it got me to wondering if perhaps some configuration of the Martin Era might have been more stable if it weren't called Black Sabbath. I am not meaning to disrespect that era at all, or say that it isn't Black Sabbath - it is, and I often find myself wishing there were more of it. But what I am trying to say here is that, maybe, if the band had been called something else, there wouldn't have been pressures/ideas to "get back Dio", "get back Ozzy", "get ALL the original guys back together", "get rid of Tony Martin", etc, and maybe as some "other project / band" it might have existed longer in some fashion, or even today, even though we did get the original Black Sabbath back, and the Dio era back (twice).

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  • Ray Rules
    replied
    Yes, well, you guys are right. But, as a response to the initial question I will quote dude above:

    Was Martin abused by Sabbath?

    J Hillenburg: There's no question in my mind that Martin's loyalty and hard work were rewarded with cold-blooded business decision that disrespected the efforts he had given as the band's singer.

    DioSword: Agreed fully, and attested to by Cozy Powell, Neil Murray and Geoff Nicholls.

    Martin may have been "just" an employee of Tony Iommi, but rarely in the music industry or the business world do you find one who is such a team player.

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  • racer
    replied
    Tony Martin was not "abused" by Sabbath. He was a contractor who did a job ... nobody held a gun to his head to keep coming back. If he had better things to do he would have been doing them.

    I admire Martyin for his work and his tenure with the band, but the answer to the question this thread poses is "no."

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  • Gardener
    replied
    Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
    I have read varying accounts of Tony Iommi as a person.

    Ozzy once called him "Darth Vader."

    Ronnie James Dio said that Tony is "very reserved...he stands onstage and plays his instrument...he's not a leaper."

    Dave Spitz said "he's like the nicest guy in the world."

    I have never had the honour of meeting him, but he strikes me as being very much in his own little world and quite shy. That can often be mistaken as arrogance. I am much the same way so I relate.
    Neil Murray said that Tony Iommi is a nice man who hates conflicts, which is why whenever someone tells him he'll do his dirty work for him, he'll just accept (which has been the case with most evictions in Sabbath). But, on the other hand, if you wish to engage a direct conflict with him, then you have to be ready to be punched through a wall !

    I think all these accounts are true. Tony is a human being, like all of us. People are complex. We're not the same person at every moment of the day or with everyone we deal with. I think overall he's a good guy who's had his share of mistakes and "bastard moments", and you don't want to fuck with him !

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  • DiosSword
    replied
    Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
    Sometimes, in all of our adoration of Iommi, I think we fail to comprehend that he has been a demanding guy to work for. Talents like him are strong Type A personalities.
    Yes...Garry Sharpe-Young relates that during the dust-up over the Live Evil mix, Iommi bellowed I'm in fucking charge here! at the studio engineer. Remember also that for all his talent, Frank Anthony Iommi is still the street kid from Aston who wasn't averse to punching out people who he perceived as screwing Black Sabbath over. Ozzy relates a couple of those stories in his biography.

    I wonder what it was like for Ronnie James Dio (a Type A personality himself) to go from one Type A personality (Ritchie Blackmore) to another (Tony Iommi) in the space of just a couple of years.

    Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
    Imagine the will and occasional stubborness of a man who carried a legendary name in the music world squarely on his back, through profound ups and downs, for virtually the entirety of the band's existance.
    And was ridiculed to hell for it from about 1984 onward. Kerrang! loved taking the piss out of him...remember the April Fool's "Tom Jones Joins Black Sabbath" story?

    Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
    When Ronnie James Dio became available for the Dehumanizer album, Tony and his management made a business decision to kill a lineup that had become surprisingly viable and seemed to be revitalizing the band's fortunes to a degree. Later, Tony once again made a business decision and axed Martin again when a lucrative reunion with Ozzy was possible at last.
    And in hindsight, given the way both of those situations turned out, I wonder if he kicked himself for it.

    Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
    There's no question in my mind that Martin's loyalty and hard work were rewarded with cold-blooded business decision that disrespected the efforts he had given as the band's singer.
    Agreed fully, and attested to by Cozy Powell, Neil Murray and Geoff Nicholls.

    Martin may have been "just" an employee of Tony Iommi, but rarely in the music industry or the business world do you find one who is such a team player.

    For all my criticisms of Ozzy and $haron, I'll give them this: they give Ozzy's band members no illusion of permanence.

    ---------- Post added at 01:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------

    Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
    No allegedly to it, lol. Dave pretty much hates his brother's guts and slags him at every opportunity while only grudgingly conceded his talents as a songwriter. They are the ultimate feuding brothers in rock history. They make the Gallagher brothers from Oasis seem just a little cranky.
    Then there's The Who.

    ---------- Post added at 01:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------

    Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
    Iommi sounds like he's a guy who's got a close circle of friends that's tough to penetrate.
    I have read varying accounts of Tony Iommi as a person.

    Ozzy once called him "Darth Vader."

    Ronnie James Dio said that Tony is "very reserved...he stands onstage and plays his instrument...he's not a leaper."

    Dave Spitz said "he's like the nicest guy in the world."

    I have never had the honour of meeting him, but he strikes me as being very much in his own little world and quite shy. That can often be mistaken as arrogance. I am much the same way so I relate.

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  • J Hillenburg
    replied
    Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
    Ray and Dave Davies from the Kinks allegedly hated each other, as well.
    No allegedly to it, lol. Dave pretty much hates his brother's guts and slags him at every opportunity while only grudgingly conceded his talents as a songwriter. They are the ultimate feuding brothers in rock history. They make the Gallagher brothers from Oasis seem just a little cranky.

    ---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

    Sometimes, in all of our adoration of Iommi, I think we fail to comprehend that he has been a demanding guy to work for. Talents like him are strong Type A personalities. Imagine the will and occasional stubborness of a man who carried a legendary name in the music world squarely on his back, through profound ups and downs, for virtually the entirety of the band's existance. Imagine the will and occasional stubborness of a man who had to relearn the guitar following a freak work-related accident. He seems to have mellowed, but Tony has been a driven man. His sole aim from the mid 1980's through the late 1990's was to return Black Sabbath to a position of prominence within the music industry. It's a business. When Ronnie James Dio became available for the Dehumanizer album, Tony and his management made a business decision to kill a lineup that had become surprisingly viable and seemed to be revitalizing the band's fortunes to a degree. Later, Tony once again made a business decision and axed Martin again when a lucrative reunion with Ozzy was possible at last.

    There's no question in my mind that Martin's loyalty and hard work were rewarded with cold-blooded business decision that disrespected the efforts he had given as the band's singer.

    Leave a comment:


  • VikingChrist
    replied
    Originally posted by Ray Rules View Post
    Yes, thats probably true, but let's face this:

    "Original" band was: Iommi, Martin, Murray, Powell and Nichols.

    Besides Iommi, all others are still attached and close friends.

    Plus, I don't know about you or how things works for american or british folks, but here if you work for 10 years traveling, sharing bus and hotel rooms, you become more than friends.

    And seeing and hearing how Nichols and Martin interacted with each other, I can say that they were and are best friends.
    Well, think about how many bands are together where guys don't even speak off stage. Most of Motley Crue seems to hate each other. Johnny and Joey Ramone almost never spoke offstage. Ray and Dave Davies from the Kinks allegedly hated each other, as well. Bands are loaded with egos. I read a quote from Bruce Johnston, whose been with the Beach Boys since 1965 where he said he was friendly with the other guys but never spend time with them when they weren't on the road because they didn't have that kind of relationship. I'm sure that Martin and Iommi were friendly, but it doesn't sound like they were particularly close. Iommi sounds like he's a guy who's got a close circle of friends that's tough to penetrate. Martin and Nichols might be close friends, I have no idea, but I do sense that Nichols was high on Martin's talents, which would explain them working together. I guess Cozy Powell was, too. Although Nichols and Iommi are close personal friends, the things I've read sound like Iommi was sort of distant, personally, from the other band members. That might explain the other guys bonding, seeing that their might have been a wall between Iommi and the rest. But I don't know, it's just speculation. Besides, I've read things from several ex Sabbath members saying that for most of the '80s and '90s, following the Born Again-era, Tony (and Geezer, too) were basically hoping and waiting for Ozzy to come back. I think that even Martin has said that. It may explain why Iommi might not have gotten really close to Martin and was quick to replace him all the time.

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  • Ray Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by VikingChrist View Post
    Yes, but what makes you think they were ever friends? I don't mean to say they hated each other, but I've never seen any evidence to suggest that their relationship extented to anything outside of the band at any time. There are a great many bands where the members function simply as co-workers and little more.
    Yes, thats probably true, but let's face this:

    "Original" band was: Iommi, Martin, Murray, Powell and Nichols.

    Besides Iommi, all others are still attached and close friends.

    Plus, I don't know about you or how things works for american or british folks, but here if you work for 10 years traveling, sharing bus and hotel rooms, you become more than friends.

    And seeing and hearing how Nichols and Martin interacted with each other, I can say that they were and are best friends.

    Leave a comment:

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