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Was Martin abused by Sabbath?

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  • #46
    hey

    im gerade neu in diesem Forum...

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    • #47
      Originally posted by David86 View Post
      And probably no contract either!
      Thats right.
      Can't you see what I see
      You and I victims of Their word
      As the master of power
      Try to poison our world
      ----- Eternal Idol ~ 1987

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      • #48
        Originally posted by racer View Post
        Tony Martin was not "abused" by Sabbath. He was a contractor who did a job ... nobody held a gun to his head to keep coming back. If he had better things to do he would have been doing them.
        So the fact that he had a choice means that there's not even a chance that his multiple exits should have been handled with the class befitting a skilled, hard-working employee? Employers are justified in treating their employees however they like when the employee chooses to be there and take it repeatedly? I disagree with your logic and feel like you are absolving Iommi of any responsibility for actions that the vast majority of people think were questionable at best. I know you are a great admirer of Tony, but like you and me both, he hasn't always behaved well as an individual.

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        • #49
          IMO - it hurt BS to re-hire martin again and again, under those circumstances. I mean, if you get rid of a singer cuz you got someone who you think will be better for the band... then that doesn't work out, then you re-hire the old guy --- the message this sends out is that you are going backwards. It also doesn't speak well for the old guy - and a front man in the RnR business needs to be a damb strong character to command such respect.

          Personally, I agree that Iommi could have thought this one out a lot more carefully.

          IMO it would have been better to either:
          1) stick with Martin
          2) ...or once dropped Martin - NOT taken him back (at least NOT again under the BS name)

          ....but at the end of that day, my feeling is that it could have been called something different right from the beginning with Martin.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by David86 View Post
            And probably no contract either!
            Hahaha
            Anyway, I'm not trying to bring up the whole "should it be considered Sabbath" thing because it has the name, it is Sabbath, the end. I am just trying to say that MAYBE if the Martin stuff had a different "brand" then Martin might not have kept getting replaced (maybe there would have instead been "breaks" where everyone went off and did other things under other names), and maybe the long-term relationship would have ended up in better shape.
            But maybe not, who the hell knows. Things transpired as they did for many reasons.
            Last edited by fondula; 09-29-2010, 11:02 AM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
              So the fact that he had a choice means that there's not even a chance that his multiple exits should have been handled with the class befitting a skilled, hard-working employee? Employers are justified in treating their employees however they like when the employee chooses to be there and take it repeatedly? I disagree with your logic and feel like you are absolving Iommi of any responsibility for actions that the vast majority of people think were questionable at best. I know you are a great admirer of Tony, but like you and me both, he hasn't always behaved well as an individual.
              All I'm saying is that he didn't have to keep coming back; nobody held a gun to his head. The gig must not have been that bad, and he obviously had nothing better to do to or he would have been doing it. But he was compensated ... so I wouldn't go so far as to say he was "abused." Could he have been treated better ... perhaps, but that's hindsight and I wasn't there. It appears he may not have been treated properly given his loyalty ... but were we there? If he was treated so poorly, why did he keep coming back?

              That's the key ... he kept coming back. Nobody should take abuse from anemployer ... but he kept coming back. Obviously he didn't feel things were too bad at the time, so who are we to look back in hindsight and try to paint some ugly picture of it now?

              Like I said, I admire his loyalty. And the Martin era of Black Sabbath produced some of my favorite music. But was he "abused"? Let me ask you ... do you go back to an employer time and time again who abuses you? My guess is the answer is "no." So I would say Martin probably wasn't "abused" by Sabbath, either.
              Last edited by racer; 10-23-2010, 10:58 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by DiosSword View Post
                Yes...Garry Sharpe-Young relates that during the dust-up over the Live Evil mix, Iommi bellowed I'm in fucking charge here! at the studio engineer.
                That's a studio engineer. That's a hugely different perspective than saying the same thing to a Tony Martin, Ozzy Osbourne, or a Vinny Appice or someone like that. Your point about him being the kid from Aston punching people out is valid, but quoting the studio engineer as the lead point in your argument is tenuous at best.

                ---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

                Originally posted by J Hillenburg View Post
                So the fact that he had a choice means that there's not even a chance that his multiple exits should have been handled with the class befitting a skilled, hard-working employee? Employers are justified in treating their employees however they like when the employee chooses to be there and take it repeatedly? I disagree with your logic and feel like you are absolving Iommi of any responsibility for actions that the vast majority of people think were questionable at best. I know you are a great admirer of Tony, but like you and me both, he hasn't always behaved well as an individual.
                Well, let's see. The first incarnation of the band he was let go along with everyone else to do the Dehumanizer reunion. Although not a clean break. Initially Geezer was brought back and was going to work on it in that way, but I have a magazine around here talking about how Tony & Geezer had to "get rid of" Tony Martin.

                Then Dio came back, worked on Dehumanizer, they had a tiff, Tony Martin came in and re-recorded the vocals again as in the previous album, and then they dumped him again when Dio came back. Now I would imagine some of the songs probably were around in embryonic form when Martin was still in the band post Tyr, so it's probably not as "cold" for him as Eternal Idol was.

                Then they asked Martin to bail their asses out at Costa Mesa. He couldn't come due to biz comittments (touring with Cozy Powell's Hammer at the time), and they got Rob Halford instead.

                He came back after that to do Cross Purposes, and did that and the Forbidden album/tour, and at which point the IRS contract expired with the release of the Sabbath Stones greatest hits album in 1996. Story at the time went that Iommi delivered a hits album just to get out of the contract, instead of doing another new studio album.

                Then there were an assload of rumours in 1996 about Rob Halford replacing Tony Martin. This was not too long after the time my site started (July 1995), and back then a site regular had written Tony Martin in mid 1996 about all this shit, and Martin said that the band was still "together", just on hold, and that they intended to get back together again. I think it's still on my site somewhere.

                Edit: Found it. Go read that letter from Martin in 1996 here: http://www.black-sabbath.com/interviews/tmletter2.html

                Then we got Ozzfest 1997 (which has a whole new level of shafting a member - Bill Ward, but this thread isn't about that). From what I can gather, Martin was never told they weren't doing anything anymore, he was just never called, and obviously he saw what happened with Ozzfest 97, and figured that was it.

                He definitely was jacked around - I lived through all this, and while I don't have things I can link to to prove my point, I remember talk at the time being that it was not always pleasant in terms of departures.

                I think in the end, Martin got tired of being jerked around, and finally said "Fuck it". As far as I can tell, Martin still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about it. I haven't asked him in awhile about it, as the last few times I did, I got the impression he'd rather not talk about it.
                Last edited by Joe Siegler; 10-23-2010, 11:22 PM.
                Joe Siegler, Webmaster - Black Sabbath Online
                View my CD collection | View my movie collection | What I've been listening to

                "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
                  People weren't buying a band with one original player, even if he is the player...


                  Ah, but they do. Alice Cooper started as the name of a hard rock band. After Muscle of Love, Alice Cooper's original band disappeared to go out on their own as "Billion Dollar babies." ... They didn't make it, but the lead singer - and only original member left - is still hugely popular. How many lineup changes has Fleetwood Mac seen? They certainly aren't remembered for their first or second incarnation.

                  You never know in the industry what might strike gold ... and I dare say much of the Martin-era music was much better than a lot of the shite that was released back then. A combination of luck and flaws in management, lack of faith from record companies ... who knows? But I don't see Martin as a stop-gap or fill-in singer ... he was Black Sabbath's singer. As the owner of the business, iommi had business decisions to make. The more I think about it, the fact that he continued to bring Martin back actually shows a certain amount of respect, because if Iommi never believed Martin had the potential to lead the band to great things, why bring him back? Headless sold more in Germany than any other sabbath recordin, so obviously there was potential there. I think Martin was asked back because of that potential ... it's not entirely Iommi's fault the potential wasn't realized.

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                  • #54
                    Was Tony Martin abused by Sabbath? Slightly I think, but it is not like he was going to make it big anywhere else. I regret, in a way, that Iommi kept going back to him. While Tony Martin was an excellent singer, his writing was generally not as good and going back to him meant they pigeon-holed themselves as a band, being that Tony Martin is a 'classic' rock singer/song writer. The best album he sang on, I think, was one he didn't write. Sadly also, his voice started to go during the early 90s and was a pale shadow of his former self on the Forbidden album.
                    Last edited by Rusty Bullet; 10-30-2010, 07:41 AM.

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                    • #55
                      I dunno, it wasn't the most successful time for the band. Iommi could have fired Martin many times before Dio came back.

                      And you can't blame Tony for reuniting with Dio and Ozzy. The fans wanted it and it meant a great deal more money. And then he brought Martin back when Dio left.

                      I think Iommi was probably more faithful to Martin than other bands in those positions would have been.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by IronDan View Post
                        I dunno, it wasn't the most successful time for the band. Iommi could have fired Martin many times before Dio came back.

                        And you can't blame Tony for reuniting with Dio and Ozzy. The fans wanted it and it meant a great deal more money. And then he brought Martin back when Dio left.

                        I think Iommi was probably more faithful to Martin than other bands in those positions would have been.
                        I think it's more the case the way Martin was dismissed when he was than that they kept coming back to him.
                        Joe Siegler, Webmaster - Black Sabbath Online
                        View my CD collection | View my movie collection | What I've been listening to

                        "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I say Tony Martin was used and abused and tossed out like yesterday’s garbage every time someone more popular came along, like Ozzy and Ronnie, no doubt about it.
                          "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                          "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                          ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                          • #58
                            I’m not criticizing Tony Iommi for it though because I’m glad we got those tours and albums with Ronnie and Ozzy, and hopefully now Tony Martin will get his due and during the new Martin/Sabbath remasters we’ll get some new Sabbath material with Tony M. I’ve really grown to like the Martin era and can say I’m a Martin fan.

                            And I’ll be buying all the Martin/Sabbath remasters.
                            "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
                            "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
                            ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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                            • #59
                              Martin is lucky to have had the oppertunities he did, considering he had no star power, no stage presence, no prestige, wasn't good looking and had the blandest of generic 80s deodorant commercial voices.

                              Of course Iommi dropped him like a hot turd.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Wheels Of Confusion View Post
                                Martin is lucky to have had the oppertunities he did, considering he had no star power, no stage presence, no prestige, wasn't good looking and had the blandest of generic 80s deodorant commercial voices.

                                Of course Iommi dropped him like a hot turd.
                                Lucky to have gotten the job originally. But he did prove himself I believe.


                                Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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