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Was Martin abused by Sabbath?

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  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbath68 View Post
    13 wasn't a classic Sabbath album and some of the guitars sound thin. In a few years, I can see Iommi remixing this album as well and maybe using a different set of songs to those that ended up on the album.

    I agree that a couple of the songs appeared to re-cycled, Zeitgeist, End of the Beginning etc, but a great album could still be picked out of the remaining songs.

    As for Tony Martin, well, it's my least favourite era of the band, but he did a job, unfortunately the band couldn't get arrested and in the music business, that's the kiss of death for every band.

    I saw them a few times on the Forbidden tour in the UK and the ticket sales were poor, even for the small venues the bands played. I remember speaking to fans who were already calling it the Forgotten tour.

    Something had to change.
    If 13 ever gets the expanded edition treatment, I hope they add the Bill Ward sessions onto it.

    I would love to see Martin/Sabbath live on stage, it'd be nice when the Forbidden album gets remixed, they'd do some shows, I'd pay to go see them, but I'd prefer they just play the Martin era songs.

    Originally posted by SweetSymptom View Post
    Something might have had to change, sure. But they could have done the right thing by Martin and not kept him in suspense for something like two to three years (from memory, he wasn't formally told that 'his services were no longer needed' until 1998 or 1999).
    Agreed, they should've shown the man a bit more respect than they did, which was really none the way Tony did Martin.

    Leave a comment:


  • SweetSymptom
    replied
    Originally posted by Sabbath68 View Post
    13 wasn't a classic Sabbath album and some of the guitars sound thin. In a few years, I can see Iommi remixing this album as well and maybe using a different set of songs to those that ended up on the album.

    I agree that a couple of the songs appeared to re-cycled, Zeitgeist, End of the Beginning etc, but a great album could still be picked out of the remaining songs.

    As for Tony Martin, well, it's my least favourite era of the band, but he did a job, unfortunately the band couldn't get arrested and in the music business, that's the kiss of death for every band.

    I saw them a few times on the Forbidden tour in the UK and the ticket sales were poor, even for the small venues the bands played. I remember speaking to fans who were already calling it the Forgotten tour.

    Something had to change.
    Something might have had to change, sure. But they could have done the right thing by Martin and not kept him in suspense for something like two to three years (from memory, he wasn't formally told that 'his services were no longer needed' until 1998 or 1999).

    Leave a comment:


  • Sabbath68
    replied
    Originally posted by tsimisde View Post
    At least, Cross Purposes was much more original than 13. Great songs on 13 but, the stuff was recycled from the glorious days and, i'm not so interested on this album. Cross Purposes, smashed the boundaries and, modernized the Sabbath style and sound and i liked it because of this. Some really great stuff on this album and at this very moment, Cross Of Thorns comes to mind....
    13 wasn't a classic Sabbath album and some of the guitars sound thin. In a few years, I can see Iommi remixing this album as well and maybe using a different set of songs to those that ended up on the album.

    I agree that a couple of the songs appeared to re-cycled, Zeitgeist, End of the Beginning etc, but a great album could still be picked out of the remaining songs.

    As for Tony Martin, well, it's my least favourite era of the band, but he did a job, unfortunately the band couldn't get arrested and in the music business, that's the kiss of death for every band.

    I saw them a few times on the Forbidden tour in the UK and the ticket sales were poor, even for the small venues the bands played. I remember speaking to fans who were already calling it the Forgotten tour.

    Something had to change.

    Leave a comment:


  • tsimisde
    replied
    Originally posted by Wheels Of Confusion View Post
    No, I'm no t an Ozzy only guy either.
    I think Cross Purposes spanks the pants off of 13 for example.
    At least, Cross Purposes was much more original than 13. Great songs on 13 but, the stuff was recycled from the glorious days and, i'm not so interested on this album. Cross Purposes, smashed the boundaries and, modernized the Sabbath style and sound and i liked it because of this. Some really great stuff on this album and at this very moment, Cross Of Thorns comes to mind....

    Leave a comment:


  • Wheels Of Confusion
    replied
    Originally posted by Ala View Post
    Oh, okay, I misunderstood you. A lowpoint commercially, yes. But not creatively or musically.

    No, I'm no t an Ozzy only guy either.
    I think Cross Purposes spanks the pants off of 13 for example.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ala
    replied
    Originally posted by Wheels Of Confusion View Post
    It is true.

    The Martin era albums and tours were flops and poorly attended.
    Oh, okay, I misunderstood you. A lowpoint commercially, yes. But not creatively or musically.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wheels Of Confusion
    replied
    Originally posted by Ala View Post
    Well, that's just not true. The Martin-era has got some fantastic stuff and it's only close minded "No Sabbath without Ozzy"-people who would say otherwise.
    It is true.

    The Martin era albums and tours were flops and poorly attended.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ala
    replied
    Originally posted by Wheels Of Confusion View Post
    Each to his own, but it's agreed by all but the nutters that the Tony Martin eras were lowpoints for Black Sabbath...
    Well, that's just not true. The Martin-era has got some fantastic stuff and it's only close minded "No Sabbath without Ozzy"-people who would say otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • BACK TO EDEN
    replied
    Low point my ass .... only for the hard of hearing , lack of insight between the ears , or the lost and confused ,,,,, the 50 Martin Era tracks are the very definition of a "musical" innovative high point for the Sab's ,,, thankyou JESUS for that AMAZING "timeless" period of time!


    As you walk alone the night surrounds you like a shroud
    The dreams you had were once of love and being proud
    Misty horizons block your vision of the world
    But the raven's eyes will show you all you need to know

    The land you loved is now so barren and so cold
    The name of God rings out so high in your soul
    This time the masters will lead us by the sword
    And should we fail then all prevails in Odin's court

    Leave a comment:


  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    Originally posted by Wheels Of Confusion View Post
    Yeah but you'd buy tickets to a Kelly Osbourne book reading out of loyalty to the Black Sabbath!

    Each to his own, but it's agreed by all but the nutters that the Tony Martin eras were lowpoints for Black Sabbath...the name was "literally in the toilet" to quote Sharon, and she wasnt wrong.
    Yes I am a Kelly fan and a Martin/Sabbath fan, and damn proud of it! I’d be the first in line to buy tickets for both.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wheels Of Confusion
    replied
    Originally posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    Unfortunately I never got to see Dio/Sabbath or Martin Sabbath, only original Sabbath, several times.

    I regret that now, as I always loved the Dio era, the Martin era is a different story as I only got into that, the last few years, If a Martin reunion were to happen now, I'd definitely buy tickets.
    Yeah but you'd buy tickets to a Kelly Osbourne book reading out of loyalty to the Black Sabbath!

    Each to his own, but it's agreed by all but the nutters that the Tony Martin eras were lowpoints for Black Sabbath...the name was "literally in the toilet" to quote Sharon, and she wasnt wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    Originally posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    All told though, I would be LYING profusely if I said I would trade the Dehumanizer tour as my first Black Sabbath concert for ANY of the Martin tours as a "first". NO contest whatsoever.
    Unfortunately I never got to see Dio/Sabbath or Martin Sabbath, only original Sabbath, several times.

    I regret that now, as I always loved the Dio era, the Martin era is a different story as I only got into that, the last few years, If a Martin reunion were to happen now, I'd definitely buy tickets.

    Leave a comment:


  • A Sabbath Historian
    replied
    I don't think "abused" is the right word. Did Iommi take Martin for granted? Yes. However, it could be argued that Martin meekly returned after Ronnie left for the second time. Is that not a glutton for punishment?

    Slightly off topic, you could also argue that the Dehumanizer album and tour didn't meet commercial expectations either. It was the right band and product at the wrong time.

    Still, it was a credible reunion because a new album and tour materialized. Unlike today, where most reunions are tour first, album... maybe. Wrongly I might add. But I digress.

    Ultimately, I think Iommi was kidding himself during the Martin years. Sure, he carried on the best he could, and that lineup had some decent moments. He's even admitted over the years that the band's credibility took a big hit. That can't be easy to accept.

    All told though, I would be LYING profusely if I said I would trade the Dehumanizer tour as my first Black Sabbath concert for ANY of the Martin tours as a "first". NO contest whatsoever.

    Leave a comment:


  • OzzyIsDio
    replied
    Originally posted by tsimisde View Post
    Music business, is a business most of all as its name says. So, because Tony Martin, didn't brought enough profit in the band, he got the boot. Ok, he wasn't got treated well but, you cant be kind on similar occasions. If your business is having problems, you have to solve them.

    First of all, Tony Martin, wasn't able to pull up on the whole tour some of his vocal duties on 100%. He blamed his poor stamima for this but, judging from the live stuff i have heard from that era, he never had a great stamina! He had poor stamina, he had a flu and it is really bad that, you can't perform your own work because of this. I'm really dissapointed that on EVERY live performance of the song Headless Cross, i NEVER heard Tony Martin pulling out his high note on the chorus in the same or in a similar way to the original version. If i have to hear prerecorded or backing vocals doing the job, i prefer to hear the original version in order to satisfy myself.

    If i was a fan back then, i would be definetely dissapointed if i went to a Black Sabbath concert to hear some of my favorite songs like Anno Mundi and Headless Cross to be a pain in the a*s to handle on live.

    Okay, i agree that the way Martin got the boot, wasn't the most kind but, it was expected to happen....
    You make a lot of valid points T, I’m simply stating that Martin was used over and over again, if Martin didn’t deliver the goods, then Tony should’ve hired someone with more star power if you will.

    Then again Tony dropped Dio, for Ozzy who had even more star power.

    So yes its all business, and like I said earlier in my post I don’t criticize Tony for doing it, because after all business is business and when in business the purpose of the business is to make money.
    Last edited by OzzyIsDio; 04-07-2019, 08:28 AM. Reason: Typo

    Leave a comment:


  • tsimisde
    replied
    Music business, is a business most of all as its name says. So, because Tony Martin, didn't brought enough profit in the band, he got the boot. Ok, he wasn't got treated well but, you cant be kind on similar occasions. If your business is having problems, you have to solve them.

    First of all, Tony Martin, wasn't able to pull up on the whole tour some of his vocal duties on 100%. He blamed his poor stamima for this but, judging from the live stuff i have heard from that era, he never had a great stamina! He had poor stamina, he had a flu and it is really bad that, you can't perform your own work because of this. I'm really dissapointed that on EVERY live performance of the song Headless Cross, i NEVER heard Tony Martin pulling out his high note on the chorus in the same or in a similar way to the original version. If i have to hear prerecorded or backing vocals doing the job, i prefer to hear the original version in order to satisfy myself.

    If i was a fan back then, i would be definetely dissapointed if i went to a Black Sabbath concert to hear some of my favorite songs like Anno Mundi and Headless Cross to be a pain in the a*s to handle on live.

    Okay, i agree that the way Martin got the boot, wasn't the most kind but, it was expected to happen....

    Leave a comment:

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