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  • Forbidden Remix & Martin era Remasters

    I STRONGLY URGE YOU TO READ THE ENTIRE THREAD.
    NOT JUST THE FIRST MESSAGE.


    Given I keep seeing post after post about "Will the Martin albums be re-released", I've decided to create a definitive post, as I'm bloody sick and tired of seeing the same questions all over again ALL THE TIME. If you see someone asking the same question again, link them to this URL, plz. Thank you.

    Having said that, here's what I know as of the writing of this post.

    [1] The remaining four studio albums that have not been re-released by Universal / Sanctuary are going to be re-released. Born Again is technically not out as I write this, but it's scheduled to come out late May. Once Born Again is out, that leaves just four studio albums.

    [2] The "when" of this is not yet known, as officially no deal has been signed, but it will be before too long, I'd imagine. Tony Iommi's manager has said these albums "will be released in due course".

    [3] Remember, these albums are on IRS. All the others (Black Sabbath through Eternal Idol) were on the original 1970 Warner Brothers & Vertigo deals. Technically Dehumanizer was an IRS album too (at least outside of the US), but due to an odd licensing quirk, Universal was able to release that under the old deal. The different concurrent deals (Warner in US, Vertigo and later rights holders (Universal) later) are the reason these existing Deluxe Editions have never been released in the US properly. However, the IRS deal from 1989-1996 (minus Dehumanizer) was a world wide deal. It's possible that these Martin era albums could be released world wide. But as a deal has not been signed, how it will play out is unknown. I'll make sure and find out about that once the deal HAS been signed.

    [4] The five albums (four studio, one live) under the IRS deal are: Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes, Cross Purposes Live, & Forbidden. There was also a 1996 compilation album (The Sabbath Stones), but I'd be shocked if that got re-released.

    [5] Forbidden is the only one I'm aware of that's getting a remix. All the others will get remastered. Which too is a good thing, as Headless Cross's CD release lacks a lot of punch, and could use a sonic upgrade for sure. I don't know who is handling the remasters for these, but given that every other Black Sabbath record was handled either by Andy Pearce in the "Deluxe Edition" series, I'd say it's a safe bet he'll do the other ones, too. However, no facts to back that up. Anyway, here's some notes about the Forbidden remix from my Born Again news post:
    One good bit of news I can announce. I did inquire about the other album in Black Sabbath's history that's had a long standing "issue" with the original mix. That's 1995's Forbidden. While a contract hasn't yet been signed for the Tony Martin IRS albums, I'm told they will be released "in due course", but.. The fun thing is that Tony Iommi is doing a new mix of the Forbidden album (they do have the tapes for that) inbetween some other projects. Forbidden is an album that usually ranks near the bottom of people's favorite Sabbath album lists. While I don't pretend it's the best, it really deserves better than it's long standing reputation has placed it. I'll be VERY curious to see a new mix of that, and see what people might think of the songs then.

    [6] How Cross Purposes Live will be handled is unknown. It's original release format was a "box" set with a CD and a VHS tape in it. The video portion has been re-released a few times over the years on DVD, but none of the releases were authorized or had cooperation of Tony Iommi (the rights holder), so I don't consider them official releases. The proper release could be interesting. Now again, I have NO facts, this is PURE guesswork on my part. What would be interesting if the Cross Purposes & CP Live releases were combined into one large pack. Like a three disc pack where we get the studio album plus extras, the live album on a Disc, and the video portion on a third DVD disc. That would rock. But that's just my personal wishlist. No proper info on that yet.

    That's it. If you have any other questions about these re-releases, plz ask here. If it's something important enough, I'll address it in this post via further editing. Tkx.

    UPDATE:

    I posted some more detail on this stuff in another post. I liked the text I wrote, so I'm amending it in here.

    As I've said already, it's unknown how the Martin era albums will be re-released. Probably individually. REMEMBER.. Black Box & Rules of Hell were Warner Brothers. The Martin albums are IRS, and will be released by Universal, who has nothing to do with Warner Brothers.

    Read point 3 from this post:

    Remember, these albums are on IRS. All the others (Black Sabbath through Eternal Idol) were on the original 1970 Warner Brothers & Vertigo deals. Technically Dehumanizer was an IRS album too (at least outside of the US), but due to an odd licensing quirk, Universal was able to release that under the old deal. The different concurrent deals (Warner in US, Vertigo and later rights holders (Universal) later) are the reason these existing Deluxe Editions have never been released in the US properly. However, the IRS deal from 1989-1996 (minus Dehumanizer) was a world wide deal. It's possible that these Martin era albums could be released world wide. But as a deal has not been signed, how it will play out is unknown. I'll make sure and find out about that once the deal HAS been signed.
    Originally in 1970, Sabbath had two sets of masters. One for Warner Bros/North America, the other for everywhere else (then Vertigo, now Universal/Sanctuary). That contract lasted through Eternal Idol. Headless Cross through Sabbath Stones was on IRS. Dehumanizer was an exception due to some contractual weirdness to let Dio out of his "Dio band contract" to do Dehumanizer in the first place. Dehumanizer in the US in 1992 was published as Reprise, which was a subsidiary of Warner Brothers (I still have my CD from then). Everywhere else it was IRS. The 2008 Rules of Hell reissue was Reprise/Rhino (again Warner Bros). The 2011 Deluxe Edition was EMI/Universal, and bears the IRS logo on it.

    BIG IMPORTANT BIT HERE:
    • Black Box & Rules of Hell were on the Warner Remaster Series
    • Black Sabbath (album) through Eternal Idol were on the Universal master series.


    This is the primary reason why the Warner stuff was North America only, and why the Universal Deluxe Edition series was not released domestically in the US. One label cannot distribute in a market where another has rights to the same material like that.

    NOW.. IRS on the other hand was a world wide deal (again, save for Dehumanizer). The albums under that deal require a new record contract for reissue. I've been told this by the guy who has been heading up the releases for Universal, and by Tony's manager Ralph Baker. That deal has not yet been signed. I'm told it will be eventually, just not yet. I've been told Universal has requested world wide release rights for the IRS Martin albums, but again. NO CONTRACT YET, SO THERE ARE NO DETAILS TO BE HAD. It would be nice if they pull off world wide for that.

    First off, the usage of "Black Box 3" was always my personal speculation. I first coined that back in 2004, and have never proported it as fact. It was always my expectations on what would happen eventually. "Black Box" was the Ozzy era in the 70's. "Black Box 2" was the Rules of Hell box, which covered the Dio era. "Black Box 3" would have been what's left that Warner has rights to, which would have been just Born Again, Seventh Star, & Eternal Idol. My guess is Warner is completely uninterested in doing that. Something else to think about is going ALL THE WAY BACK to the 80's, Born Again has NEVER been released on CD domestically in the US. I'm also fairly sure Seventh Star hasn't been either, but I'm not as iron clad positive on that fact. I can't see Warner wanting to do a small box with just those three albums in it. They can't release the Martin stuff (save for Eternal Idol; see IRS stuff above).

    Having said all of that, it's not yet known how the Martin era albums will be distributed. BUT...

    Rules of Hell & Black Box matter NOT whether the Martin albums will be released as a box or not. Given the Universal/Sanctuary Deluxe Edition series (2009-2011) has been released individually so far, I suspect that will continue with the Martin albums, but again.. NO DETAILS YET.

    Why is all this stuff important regarding Warner / Vertigo / IRS / Universal / Sanctuary important? It's because it's the answer as to why people get pissed off and slag off the band saying they're going after a cash grab, and insulting Sabbath/Iommi for re-releasing stuff so many times. It's not them. It's the record labels doing that stuff. Iommi has some input, sure, but it's not like Tony is sitting around thinking "OK, how can I release these albums five times over and gouge people?" That kind of post pisses me off. If you want to post that way, go to Blabbermouth.

    P.S. NO DETAILS YET. Yes, I know I've said that several times already, but good Lord, you have to beat people over the head sometimes till they fucking get it. Even then they're likely to think I'm lying and go off and look for "the real story".

    P.S. 2 - NO DETAILS YET!!
    Last edited by Joe Siegler; 08-04-2012, 10:41 PM.
    Joe Siegler, Webmaster - Black Sabbath Online
    View my CD collection | View my movie collection | What I've been listening to

    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

  • #2
    I have 2 copies of the original IRS prints of Headless Cross and TYR already...they are so rare that I once I had the chance to get another copy, I seized the opportunity. Some of the most important albums of Black Sabbath and thus in all of heavy metal for me. Nevertheless, if and when a proper deluxe edition remaster of these albums (with original artwork & cover format) sees the light of day, I'll be one of the first in line...These 2 albums are so important for me personally, they have some of the best heavy metal I know of. For me they are fantastic albums of BLACK SABBATH.

    I also have the original IRS print of Cross Purposes which is the last great album of Black Sabbath. Surely I will buy a deluxe edition remaster if it ever sees the light of day.

    Originally posted by Joe Siegler View Post
    Now again, I have NO facts, this is PURE guesswork on my part. What would be interesting if the Cross Purposes & CP Live releases were combined into one large pack. Like a three disc pack where we get the studio album plus extras, the live album on a Disc, and the video portion on a third DVD disc. That would rock. But that's just my personal wishlist.
    That kind of large 3-disc pack would immediately make me reserve my money for it, immediately. What a great idea, should be passed on to the powers that be...
    "He is the King of all kings, the keeper of light...He holds eternity's wings"

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    • #3
      Joe - could you inquire as to the format of these? I.e., the Japanese/picture disk bonus tracks to be included on the same side as the normal release.

      It's a shame that What's the Use and Loser Gets it All (two of the better songs off their respective releases) were not released domestically.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Joe Siegler View Post
        What would be interesting if the Cross Purposes & CP Live releases were combined into one large pack. Like a three disc pack where we get the studio album plus extras, the live album on a Disc, and the video portion on a third DVD disc. That would rock.
        THAT would certainly rock! What a great idea!

        Joe, maybe you could talk about this to the producers. Who knows what could happen?

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm torn on how I'd like them to deal with Cross Purposes Live.
          The 3-disc mega-pack would be great, but... if there was enough other extra stuff for another disc with Cross Purposes (The ultimate but unlikely dream being the T. Martin Dehuminiser sessions.) I'd like to see CP Live given it's own release and a bit more recognition/respect.

          For my money it's Sabbath's best live album. Live at Last sounds like a bootleg (which it basically was) and, while Live Evil has it's moments. Dio never sounded right singing the Ozzy stuff as their vocal sounds and styles were opposite ends of the spectrum. (Tony, somewhere in the middle sounds great on both Ozzy and Dio era material.)

          And PLEASE could a re-release of "Forbidden" have a new album cover! I'm sure that thing is subliminally responsible for 60% of the bad feeling towards that actually very good album. (Even Plain Black with just "Black Sabbath - Forbidden" in silver would do if they don't have the budget.)
          http://www.last.fm/user/Purplegrant

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          • #6
            Tyr should get remixed. Everything is buried under the drums. I was just listening to it again and there's parts where you can barely hear the guitar. I think Forbidden sounds better. :p

            But it's so great to see that this is happening. Slowly but hey, Rome wasn't built in a day
            The dog's name is Pete. If he tries to mount you in the middle of the night, say "no" sternly. But don't look him in the eye.

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            • #7
              First of all, Joe, thanks for the info you keep posting!

              Originally posted by Joe Siegler View Post
              Technically Dehumanizer was an IRS album too (at least outside of the US), but due to an odd licensing quirk, Universal was able to release that under the old deal.
              The release of the deluxe Dehumanizer I ordered from Amazon.co.uk is an EMI release, having the IRS banner somewhere.



              With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the IRS albums came out from EMI as well, with IRS being an EMI subsidiary at the time.

              But no matter which record company gets them out, I guess it will be the same team working on them (ie, Andy Pearce handling the remastering).

              As for the content itself, I guess the B-sides will be included, as was the case with The Eternal Idol. Beyond that, I'd love to see an official live recording from the Tyr era, but I wouldn't mind having the complete Cross Purposes Live concert.

              As for the Forbidden remix, I think the sound won't affect my opinion for that album that much, as to these ears Martin sings like he's tired, Iommi's riffing is rather boring and the general songwriting is subpar, compared to the Headless Cross/Tyr/Cross Purposes albums.

              Let's hope they don't take too long!
              Brighter Death Now
              Ergo Proxy
              The Agent Of Death

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Raziel666 View Post
                The release of the deluxe Dehumanizer I ordered from Amazon.co.uk is an EMI release, having the IRS banner somewhere.



                With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the IRS albums came out from EMI as well, with IRS being an EMI subsidiary at the time.
                Dehumanizer is a special case, as there was some negotiating to let Ronnie out of his Dio contract. That fiddly bit is what allowed Dehumanizer to come out. The other four require a new contract. Iommi's manager & the guy from Universal I'm dealing with have both told me the same thing.

                As for the content itself, I guess the B-sides will be included, as was the case with The Eternal Idol. Beyond that, I'd love to see an official live recording from the Tyr era, but I wouldn't mind having the complete Cross Purposes Live concert.
                I still have my VHS from 1995.

                Also, here's what I put forth to the label insofar as extras I could think of for the four remaining studio albums. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know. I'll pass them on, assuming they're realistic. Before you post any suggestions, use the already released albums as a guideline as to what to ask for.

                BTW, I keep asking for the music videos, but to date, they've never included them.

                --------------

                HEADLESS CROSS:

                1) "Cloak & Dagger" - Was a B-Side to the "Headless Cross" single, and also appeared on a picture disc version of the HC album.
                2) Headless Cross Radio Edit: Shorter version of the song for radio use.
                3) An EPK that Iommi & Powell did to sort of "re-introduce" the band. It's video, though. Might be beyond the scope of what you're doing.
                4) Music Video: Headless Cross
                5) Russian Live tracks. There's an interesting story behind these that Neil Murray told awhile ago when I had asked him about Sabbath playing the old Shadows song "Apache" during the gigs. If you can get a hold of all this (was filmed on video, too) it'd be one hell of an extra! Here's the story:

                "We only performed Apache on the 2 shows that were recorded on one day in Moscow. It was supposed to be a throwaway track to be played while 24-track tapes were changed over for the live recording. From what I understood at the time, the recording would be under our control as far as mixing & editing goes. However, security guards prevented anyone from our crew entering the recording truck after the show, and instead of the band and record company taking possession of the master tapes, some Russian organisation (basically the Mafia) disappeared with them. I assume the concert was released in Russia etc, but I doubt if any money was ever paid to Black Sabbath. The Shadows, whose song Apache is, was a huge influence on myself, Tony Iommi, Cozy, Brian May and many other UK musicians of around my age – they were the biggest UK band before the Beatles came along."

                NOTE: The song "Call of the Wild" was originally called "Hero". The name was changed due to Ozzy putting out a song called Hero on his solo album the year before.

                NOTE 2: The song "When Death Calls" is the only time someone else other than Iommi ever plays a guitar piece on a Black Sabbath album. Brian May plays the guitar solo for that track.

                ----------

                TYR:

                1) There were two live tracks on the CD single version of "Feels Good to Me" that came from the Russia gigs before. Sabbath must have some sort of access to get that.
                2) "Feels Good to Me" Radio Edit: Shorter version of the song from the same CD single mentioned above.
                3) Another possibility is the version of "Jerusalem" that appears on Tony Martin's first solo album in 1992 (Back Where I Belong), but there might be some big rights issues using that. Be cool, though.
                4) Music Video: Feels Good to Me

                NOTE: On my site there are some notes from fans regarding the Norse mythology stuff connected with this album. Check it out: http://www.black-sabbath.com/discog/tyr.html

                ----------

                CROSS PURPOSES:

                1) "What's The Use" - Was on the Japanese release of the album. It's a bloody crime it's so obscure, it's the best song on the album. DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE THIS SONG OFF THE DELUXE EDITION!
                2) Music Video: The Hand that Rocks the Cradle
                3) The Cross Purposes Live CD as a second disc?
                4) The Cross Purposes Live Video as a third disc (DVD) extra?
                5) Live recordings from South America with Bill Ward?

                NOTE: There's a long standing rumour that Eddie Van Halen either co-wrote or played on the song "Evil Eye". If that really did happen, it would be nice to sort that out in the liner notes. There's been so many "authoritative" answers one way or the other, I don't think anyone knows what to believe about that anymore.

                -----------

                FORBIDDEN:

                Well, the new remix that Tony is doing is a huge deal here.

                1) "The Illusion of Power" Alternate Take. There's a version with Tony Martin singing the rap part that Ice-T does on the final version. That'd be a good extra.
                2) "Loser Gets it All" - Japanese only track, appeared a year later on the "Sabbath Stones" compilation.
                3) There has been a bootleg out there from this album in it's earliest stages that's just instrumental. All the songs are on there, but in earlier/demo form, and without any vocals.
                4) Music Video: Get a Grip

                NOTE: The song "The Illusion of Power" is the only time that someone other than the incumbent lead vocalist in the band sang on a Black Sabbath record. I don't count Iommi, Butler, or Ward who also sang at times on a Sabbath song in the 70's. That's not what I was getting at.

                NOTE 2: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE in the booklet for this album, you need to get Iommi or Nicholls or Martin to detail everyone who is in the artwork on the cover. Nobody's ever done that. It needs to be in there.
                Last edited by Joe Siegler; 05-11-2011, 08:45 AM.
                Joe Siegler, Webmaster - Black Sabbath Online
                View my CD collection | View my movie collection | What I've been listening to

                "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

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                • #9
                  Do you think Cross Purposes Live will be re-released with the missing song (Children of the Sea) and the full drum solo?
                  Last edited by Metal Priest; 04-20-2011, 03:59 AM.
                  http://www.last.fm/user/MusicFan91

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                  • #10
                    Cross Purposes Live is also apparently missing Immaculate Deception.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SweetSymptom View Post
                      Cross Purposes Live is also apparently missing Immaculate Deception.
                      No. That song was already dropped from the set list by that time.

                      I would also imagine that there is a reason why Children Of the Sea is not included, perhaps something went wrong with the sound...?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Joe Siegler View Post
                        1) "What's The Use" - Was on the Japanese release of the album. It's a bloody crime it's so obscure, it's the best song on the album. DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE THIS SONG OFF THE DELUXE EDITION!
                        Can you PLEASE make sure this b-side (along with Loser Gets it All) appear on the first cd, along with the rest of the domestic release

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                        • #13
                          Forbidden Bonus Disc

                          Joe, they could put Karlshamn Rock Festival 1995 as a bonus disc on the Forbbiden Deluxe Edition, assuming they have access to the recording. It's Cozy Powell on drums!

                          It is available with excellent sound quality on bootleg and it has a pretty interesting set list that would fill a whole CD. Also it would be much more interesting than the instrumental version of Forbidden cause it has no vocals.

                          This was the set list that night:

                          Ave Satani/Gates of Hell
                          Heaven and Hell Intro
                          Children of the Grave
                          Neon Knights
                          The Shining
                          The Wizard
                          War Pigs
                          Headless Cross
                          Guitar Solo/Rusty Angels
                          Bass Solo/When Death Calls
                          I Won't Cry For You
                          The Mob Rules
                          Guitar Intro/Black Sabbath
                          Paranoid/Heaven and Hell reprise
                          Iron Man
                          Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
                          Last edited by Mauricio; 04-19-2011, 12:42 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Just get me a Black Box II we were suppose to get before, but only this time IRS Martin albums with the bonus japanese tracks, Cloak And Dagger, CPL in full dvd and cd. Some kind of validity The Rules Of Hell got, but with a better touch (no lacking in any special stuff).
                            "Even with so much bad blood between us... It's funny... Now that I'm actually face to face with him again... The hatred is gone. All I feel is a deep sense of longing. And pity. Did Zero really hate me? Or... Did he fear me?" - Big Boss

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Joe Siegler View Post
                              Also, here's what I put forth to the label insofar as extras I could think of for the four remaining studio albums. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know. I'll pass them on, assuming they're realistic. Before you post any suggestions, use the already released albums as a guideline as to what to ask for.

                              BTW, I keep asking for the music videos, but to date, they've never included them.
                              If Wolverhampton '90 had been pro-rec it would've been, like, the ultimate add to a Deluxe Tyr
                              The dog's name is Pete. If he tries to mount you in the middle of the night, say "no" sternly. But don't look him in the eye.

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