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  1. #1
    Gregory House's Avatar
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    Question Gillen in 94 ????

    Heard some members talking about this awhile back . First off looked throu all my books and there was no mention of this anywhere ! Why would Iommi bring Ray back almost 8 years later ? He failed in Blue Murder , fucked up in Badlands ! Wasnt he sick and pretty much out of music by then ~? This would have been another of Tonys many mistakes ! Another slap in Martins face too !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    Heard some members talking about this awhile back . First off looked throu all my books and there was no mention of this anywhere ! Why would Iommi bring Ray back almost 8 years later ? He failed in Blue Murder , fucked up in Badlands ! Wasnt he sick and pretty much out of music by then ~? This would have been another of Tonys many mistakes ! Another slap in Martins face too !
    uhh... I don't think so. I've never heard this? who exactly is your source? and Ray didn't fuck up anywhere, one talented guy. Badlands kicks ass. In 94 Sabbath recorded and released Cross Purposes and toured, Bill replaced Bobby for a few gigs at the end of the tour. after that Geezer and Bill left, Neil Murray and Cozy Powell return and they do Forbidden.
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    Gregory House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    uhh... I don't think so. I've never heard this? who exactly is your source? and Ray didn't fuck up anywhere, one talented guy. Badlands kicks ass. In 94 Sabbath recorded and released Cross Purposes and toured, Bill replaced Bobby for a few gigs at the end of the tour. after that Geezer and Bill left, Neil Murray and Cozy Powell return and they do Forbidden.


    I believe Gardner was speaking about this . Yes he never made the cut with John Sykes in Blue Murder and yes while Badlands debut was great i even own that cd things fell apart fast for that band after that , and where or what did Gillen do after Badlands ?????
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    Heard some members talking about this awhile back . First off looked throu all my books and there was no mention of this anywhere ! Why would Iommi bring Ray back almost 8 years later ? He failed in Blue Murder , fucked up in Badlands ! Wasnt he sick and pretty much out of music by then ~? This would have been another of Tonys many mistakes ! Another slap in Martins face too !
    I seriously doubt this, unless Tony has some ghost whisperer skills I'm not aware off since Ray passed away already in December of 93....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charger View Post
    I seriously doubt this, unless Tony has some ghost whisperer skills I'm not aware off since Ray passed away already in December of 93....


    Maybe i got my dates wrong but i rememeber pre Cross Purposes perhaps right after Dio left ?
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Psycho Man's Avatar
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    OK found this on wiki:

    After the UK tour was complete, Gillen was officially fired from the band. Lee insisted to the press that the band would continue with singer John West. The band wrote and recorded some new songs, however, Atlantic Records had had enough and dropped the band from their label entirely. Gillen then appeared with George Lynch’s solo band on the album Sacred Groove. Following that, he formed Sun Red Sun with guitarist Al Romano, former Alice in Chains bassist Mike Starr, and drummer Bobby Rondinelli. But, just as the new group was off and running, Gillen was diagnosed with HIV. On December 3, 1993, he died at his New Jersey home due to AIDS-related complications
    **http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badlands_(band)

    during Voodoo Highway the band was having issues with their label and disagreements within the band. Ray wanted to record some new stuff he'd written but Lee stated they were "average" and wouldn't record them. Ray said Jake was "a lazy musician", Kerrang interviewed Jake and talked about the problems Badlands were having and later Gillen talked with them in issue 401. And there you have it. Ray did Lynch's album then Sun Red Sun, and then died.
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    Guitarist Al Romano of Sun Red Sun which featured Gillen said in a interview I came across the Iommi did approach Gillen in mid-1993 to rejoin him in Sabbath.

    Kinda like in the Black Sabbath Masters of Reality 3 dvd set in 2008 Bobby Rondinelli said Cozy Powell also to rejoin in 1994. That Cozy was even in rehearsals as Bobby auditioned. According to Bobby, He was told by Iommi to stay out of Cozy's way so he wudnt get the idea he was gonna get replaced. Dont take my word for it, watch the dvd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDTRADER View Post
    Guitarist Al Romano of Sun Red Sun which featured Gillen said in a interview I came across the Iommi did approach Gillen in mid-1993 to rejoin him in Sabbath.

    Kinda like in the Black Sabbath Masters of Reality 3 dvd set in 2008 Bobby Rondinelli said Cozy Powell also to rejoin in 1994. That Cozy was even in rehearsals as Bobby auditioned. According to Bobby, He was told by Iommi to stay out of Cozy's way so he wudnt get the idea he was gonna get replaced. Dont take my word for it, watch the dvd.


    Nothing against Bobby but why would Iommi have both drummers there ? Cozy was and always will be far superior to Bobby ! I always thought that Cozy was involved in Cross Purposes in some aspect , wierd how Iommi lost faith in Cozy so fast , maybe cause Cozy always told it like it was which probably didnt sit well with Iommi !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    that sounds like Fenholts story. "I was in Sabbath..."
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    Sure it wasn't talk of Gillan and not Gillen?

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    if it was Ian then conversation would be very short

    "Hey ian what are you doing, wanna write with me in Sabbath"
    "Sorry dude I'm doing shit with Deep Purple"
    "I want to tell you, yeah
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    Sleeping here with you tonight
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    A friend of mine was corresponding by letters with Al Romano of Sun Red Sun during the 90s, and it's true Romano told him that, when Tony Iommi contacted Bobby Rondinelli for the spot in Sabbath in early 1993, he also asked Ray Gillen if he wouldn't join back, but Ray was already too sick to accept the job.
    I think there's a good deal of chance this is true. Back in 1986, Tony had been instantly impressed by Ray's incredible voice, Tony might have been disappointed he never got to release anything with this unbelievable singer. And you have to see that Sabbath at the time were still trying to re-conquer their US audience after the encouraging first step they made with "Dehumanizer". Tony may just have thought that Tony Martin might not be the right singer for it, while Ray, being American and having toured the US during the past five years with Badlands, already had at least a small fan base.

    Now, regarding the fact that Cozy Powell should have been there for "Cross Purposes", I think there has to be some confusion with the "Forbidden" tour. As far as I know, Bobby Rondinelli has been contacted in early 1993, as soon as it became obvious that Vinny wouldn't do the album. While I was working on writing my book, I've had access to several letters from Tony Martin : In March 1993, he wrote that Vinny should be doing the album with them, but he wasn't sure. In April 1993, he wrote that Vinny wasn't coming back and Bobby had been hired. This doesn't leave a lot of room for Cozy to be there during Bobby's audition. Plus, starting for late february 1993, Cozy was touring with Brian May, and the tour would last until december 1993.

    I think the story were Bobby was there while Cozy was in the band but Tony Iommi didn't want Cozy to notice him too much fits better in the "Forbidden" time line, when Cozy and Tony were getting on each other's nerves and Tony was waiting for Cozy to leave instead of firing him.

    Edtrader, I haven't seen the Master of Reality DVD, but you must have misunderstatood, or Bobby made a mistake telling his story (we all do at one point or another )

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    that sounds like Fenholts story. "I was in Sabbath..."
    Well, in Ray's case, he really was !!!
    Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
    "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    A friend of mine was corresponding by letters with Al Romano of Sun Red Sun during the 90s, and it's true Romano told him that, when Tony Iommi contacted Bobby Rondinelli for the spot in Sabbath in early 1993, he also asked Ray Gillen if he wouldn't join back, but Ray was already too sick to accept the job.
    I think there's a good deal of chance this is true. Back in 1986, Tony had been instantly impressed by Ray's incredible voice, Tony might have been disappointed he never got to release anything with this unbelievable singer. And you have to see that Sabbath at the time were still trying to re-conquer their US audience after the encouraging first step they made with "Dehumanizer". Tony may just have thought that Tony Martin might not be the right singer for it, while Ray, being American and having toured the US during the past five years with Badlands, already had at least a small fan base.

    Now, regarding the fact that Cozy Powell should have been there for "Cross Purposes", I think there has to be some confusion with the "Forbidden" tour. As far as I know, Bobby Rondinelli has been contacted in early 1993, as soon as it became obvious that Vinny wouldn't do the album. While I was working on writing my book, I've had access to several letters from Tony Martin : In March 1993, he wrote that Vinny should be doing the album with them, but he wasn't sure. In April 1993, he wrote that Vinny wasn't coming back and Bobby had been hired. This doesn't leave a lot of room for Cozy to be there during Bobby's audition. Plus, starting for late february 1993, Cozy was touring with Brian May, and the tour would last until december 1993.

    I think the story were Bobby was there while Cozy was in the band but Tony Iommi didn't want Cozy to notice him too much fits better in the "Forbidden" time line, when Cozy and Tony were getting on each other's nerves and Tony was waiting for Cozy to leave instead of firing him.

    Edtrader, I haven't seen the Master of Reality DVD, but you must have misunderstatood, or Bobby made a mistake telling his story (we all do at one point or another )

    ---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------



    Well, in Ray's case, he really was !!!


    Thanks for clearing that up , knew i wasnt crazy ! So there was a chance of Vinnie on Cross Purposes eh !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Wow, I never heard of Tony approaching Ray to come BACK to Sabbath, This is an interesting thread!

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    and Mr Encyclopedia clears it up. If only Ray had been a little more patient with Eternal Idol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    and Mr Encyclopedia clears it up. If only Ray had been a little more patient with Eternal Idol


    Than what ? Its been documented that the man just loved to party and work ethic and or writing skills were subpar at best !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    Than what ? Its been documented that the man just loved to party and work ethic and or writing skills were subpar at best !
    what are you talking about? He was the one in Badlands pushing for the band to actually do work. Anything I've heard him on rocks my ears.
    "I want to tell you, yeah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    what are you talking about? He was the one in Badlands pushing for the band to actually do work. Anything I've heard him on rocks my ears.


    Which would be what 3 ? Badlands cds and some group project that went nowhere , hes not that good ! He quit in 87 , what makes anyone think a effort in 93 ??? would have been any better .
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    hard to get much better than Eternal Idol, he quit after the album was basically finished he was just tired was the revolving bass and drummer doors. besides Jake and Ray couldn't work things out, thats why Badlands went awry, Dusk was released after Ray passed. Ray had enough talent for Iommi, had he not been sick who know what would've happened.
    "I want to tell you, yeah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    He quit in 87 , what makes anyone think a effort in 93 ??? would have been any better .
    What are you talking about ? When Ray quit in 1987, he had finished recording all the vocal parts for months, the drummer had left, the bass player was nowhere to be seen, nobody was getting paid anymore and there was no date announced for the release of the album, which only happened months after he left ! You can't really compare the 1987 situation with 1993. Plus, the fact that Ray thought the band was going nowhere didn't have much to do with his performance on the album that was phenomenal, and you can't really blame the lack of success of Badlands on the talents of Ray or Jake E Lee. Some bands, even if they have gifted players and deliver good music, are just not meant to be. Badlands was one of those. I'm certain that, given the healthier situation of Sabbath following the "Dehumanizer" tour, an album with Ray would have been a bigger success in the US than "Cross Purposes", only because his name was better known than Tony Martin's at the time, at least in the New York and Los Angeles areas.
    Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
    "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    What are you talking about ? When Ray quit in 1987, he had finished recording all the vocal parts for months, the drummer had left, the bass player was nowhere to be seen, nobody was getting paid anymore and there was no date announced for the release of the album, which only happened months after he left ! You can't really compare the 1987 situation with 1993. Plus, the fact that Ray thought the band was going nowhere didn't have much to do with his performance on the album that was phenomenal, and you can't really blame the lack of success of Badlands on the talents of Ray or Jake E Lee. Some bands, even if they have gifted players and deliver good music, are just not meant to be. Badlands was one of those. I'm certain that, given the healthier situation of Sabbath following the "Dehumanizer" tour, an album with Ray would have been a bigger success in the US than "Cross Purposes", only because his name was better known than Tony Martin's at the time, at least in the New York and Los Angeles areas.


    Dont want to argue with anyone thats just what i read about him and fact is a fact he quit ! Geezer quit a few times also if i remember . Seems people like quitters .
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    I don't see your point. Everyone quit at one time or another. Tony quit for Jethro Tull, Ozzy quit after his parents died, Geezer quit in I think 77 for a few weeks
    "I want to tell you, yeah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    I don't see your point. Everyone quit at one time or another. Tony quit for Jethro Tull, Ozzy quit after his parents died, Geezer quit in I think 77 for a few weeks


    Seems that just because Ray was a "member " for a bit we have to break out the pom poms and praise him , i just feel he lacked what it took to be a productive member of the band , so i feel that he was not a real great singer but a ok stand in for a then fucked up Glenn Hughes , trying not to get of topic here so i leave it as that im not a big fan of Mr. Gillen ! Im glad he didnt return to the band . Sorry to offend anyone here just my opinion !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    What does being a productive member have to do with being a great singer? The throat and brain are very different. And evidently Tony was so impressed that after Ray took over for Glenn they began working on Eternal Idol. They worked on the album from October of 86 until March of 87 at which point they had a stellar album. IMO he's a very productive member, he laid down a foundation for Tony Martin's career.
    "I want to tell you, yeah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    What does being a productive member have to do with being a great singer? The throat and brain are very different. And evidently Tony was so impressed that after Ray took over for Glenn they began working on Eternal Idol. They worked on the album from October of 86 until March of 87 at which point they had a stellar album. IMO he's a very productive member, he laid down a foundation for Tony Martin's career.


    If im not mistaken Mr. Martin was considered in 86 also !

    ---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    What does being a productive member have to do with being a great singer? The throat and brain are very different. And evidently Tony was so impressed that after Ray took over for Glenn they began working on Eternal Idol. They worked on the album from October of 86 until March of 87 at which point they had a stellar album. IMO he's a very productive member, he laid down a foundation for Tony Martin's career.


    And i said i dont think hes was a great singer ,

    ---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Man View Post
    What does being a productive member have to do with being a great singer? The throat and brain are very different. And evidently Tony was so impressed that after Ray took over for Glenn they began working on Eternal Idol. They worked on the album from October of 86 until March of 87 at which point they had a stellar album. IMO he's a very productive member, he laid down a foundation for Tony Martin's career.


    They had working demos !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    They had working demos !
    The album was essentially finished
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    They had working demos !
    strange then that it sounded better than the "finished" product.

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    Hi Gardener, I went back to the DVD and watched to make sure Bobby was talkng about Cross Purposes 1994, and he was. I didnt misunderstand what he said. Now weither Bobby is correct on his statement or not is on him.
    Last edited by EDTRADER; 01-04-2010 at 01:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilmaycare View Post
    strange then that it sounded better than the "finished" product.


    To each his own !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    They had working demos !
    Considering the fact that after Ray left, the only things left before releasing the album have been for Tony Martin to re-record the vocals and then for Chris Tsangerides to mix it (Bev Bevan only played cymbals on "The Scarlet Pimpernel"), these were not working demos, but the actual album. Had Ray not left before the album was released, what he recorded then would have been the final product.
    Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
    "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

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    Add me to the list of people that think Ray Gillen was a very good singer.


    Regarding Al Romano, I read an interview from 2004 with Leslie West and he was asked about working with Al, and Leslie, who seemed to be in good spirits throughout, said:

    I don't wanna talk about Al Romano. Next question.

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    What was Ray's input on Eternal Idol, the writing process I mean? Bob Daisley wrote most of the lyrics as much as I know...altough they did change somethings, cos I remember Bob saying in an interview that some of the lyrics that made on to the album actually weren't his, but whose, Tony's or Ray's?
    I remember from the Never Say Die book that Ray really wasn't all that into writing anything...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charger View Post
    I remember from the Never Say Die book that Ray really wasn't all that into writing anything...
    Kinda like Ozzy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charger View Post
    What was Ray's input on Eternal Idol, the writing process I mean? Bob Daisley wrote most of the lyrics as much as I know...altough they did change somethings, cos I remember Bob saying in an interview that some of the lyrics that made on to the album actually weren't his, but whose, Tony's or Ray's?
    I remember from the Never Say Die book that Ray really wasn't all that into writing anything...


    Very little thats why Bob was brought in .
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    Very little thats why Bob was brought in .
    This and because they needed a good bass player who was able to write his own parts too
    Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
    "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    This and because they needed a good bass player who was able to write his own parts too


    Im lost ? as opposed to who ?
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory House View Post
    Im lost ? as opposed to who ?
    As opposed to no one. Dave Spitz had been put "on vacantion", so they needed a good lyricist, as well as a talented bass player who could write his own parts. Bob fitted both roles, that's all.
    Tony Iommi Fact #216: In fact, most demolition companies donít use explosives to collapse buildings, only a good stereo and a copy of ďDehumanizerĒ.
    "Black Sabbath : la BÍte venue de Birmingham"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    As opposed to no one. Dave Spitz had been put "on vacantion", so they needed a good lyricist, as well as a talented bass player who could write his own parts. Bob fitted both roles, that's all.


    Gotcha ! I enjoyed Dave as a bass player , he and Eric Singer did well !
    The worst Sabbath era , is when theres NO Sabbath era !

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