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  1. #1

    Mad Do Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy unfairly undermine Bill's contributions to Black Sabbath?

    My debut "new thread" question since I joined BSO! I will start by answering...YES! Frankly, the hypocrisy of Ozzy in particular is SHAMEFUL! Here is a man who has stated constantly that "there is only ONE Black Sabbath-Iommi, Butler, Osbourne, and Ward!", when in reality (no pun intended) he's MORE than content with just 3/4 of "Black Sabbath". So much for Bill being Ozzy's "closest friend" in Sabbath! Anyway, let the discussion begin! Thanks BSO!

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    My debut "new thread" question since I joined BSO! I will start by answering...YES! Frankly, the hypocrisy of Ozzy in particular is SHAMEFUL! Here is a man who has stated constantly that "there is only ONE Black Sabbath-Iommi, Butler, Osbourne, and Ward!", when in reality (no pun intended) he's MORE than content with just 3/4 of "Black Sabbath". So much for Bill being Ozzy's "closest friend" in Sabbath! Anyway, let the discussion begin! Thanks BSO!
    Ozzy isn't the only member of Black Sabbath that matters and he certainly wasn't going to screw over Geezer and Tony when Bill fell through. So i guess you wont be buying the album

  3. #3
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
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    I disagree Sabbath Historian. Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer wanted Bill to be a part of this venture, but Bill backed out for his own reasons. I am sure that Ozzy's opinion of what constitutes Black Sabbath has not changed, but circumstances resulted in Bill opting out late in the day; that doesn't mean that they can't be friends still. Business and friendship can be two different things. There is no poison being espoused in the media by these guys, and all 4 members have preserved the dignity of one another in their public comments, so I don't see this as hypocritical. I also fully believe that Bill will be back in the future. Keep in mind that they wrote songs for a year when Bill opted out; by that time it was probably too late to consider scrapping the entire project. If Bill had opted out from day 1, there is a chance that the others would not have re-formed at all. I sense that you are stirring the pot a bit here and aren't as strongly opinionated as your post suggests.
    Last edited by Now in Darkness; 03-10-2013 at 11:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Business and friendship can be two different things.
    That's part of the problem i think (without knowing anything ofcourse). It seems like this was all business when it should've been dealt with through friendship. As stated before on these forums, why couldn't one of them just pick up the phone ang go: "look dude...." instead of it all going through managers, "representatives" and lawyers? They've been friends since '67 for Gods sake. Tony and Bill even a few years longer...
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    fuckin sick subject ,so hurt for bill and fans cause they had enough money for kids to inherit ,it could have been more special for them then us, what is sick is wanting to hear new recording and not wanting to hear recordings cause it's 3/4th of black sabbath, so is it really black sabbath????????

  6. #6
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    IMO it's impossible to know the answer until all of them disclose the information...
    Do you hear the thunder raging in the sky?
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  7. #7

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    I believe this was a convenient out for Bill just read some of Tonys concerns before the announcement. Also take the failed H&H audition into account.

  8. #8
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    This subject has been discussed here per nausium... there are opinions on both sides of the issue, Ward chose not to participate end of story.. thank God the other 3 have chosen to record a new album... God Bless them...

  9. #9

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    I honestly believe that Bill just isn't up to the rigors of full-time studio and live work. He's darted in and out of the band many times before: he left the band after recording and touring the first leg of 'Heaven And Hell', recorded 'Born Again' but didn't tour behind it, had Vinnie Appice and a few others sit in on drums because of Bill's health troubles and now everything that has gone down after the 11/11/11 announcement.. I'm sure it's never fun to admit to yourself that maybe you no longer quite have the stamina, strength and chops to be Bill Ward, the percussionist of Black Sabbath anymore. That, and maybe he would have held up the momentum of writing, recording and touring.

    No one's getting any younger, and especially with Tony battling lymphoma, time is of the essence. Yeah, it's not the full, original Ozzy-era Black Sabbath, but Ozzy, Tony and Geezer playing with a truly incredible drummer like Brad Wilk is also pretty cool by me. I'm over moaning and whining about the lack of Bill. Bill *chose* not to participate (not to be redundant to what you wrote above, Wicked Cricket)! People should be shitting on him for that, rather than shitting on the other three. I just hope Brad Wilk tours with the band. He was part of the recording process for the new album. I'd very much like to hear him touring the album with the rest of the band.

    The band really seems focused, determined and on it for this album to be completed, and to succeed. All of the public drama aside, I honestly think that Bill just isn't up for it all anymore, and that that is what's going on. It's sad, because you'd think all four of them would bandy together, if for no other reason than to all be there to support Tony through his illness. The more info I hear about '13', the more genuinely excited I am to hear and experience this album. Peace.

    ---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesline View Post
    fuckin sick subject ,so hurt for bill and fans cause they had enough money for kids to inherit ,it could have been more special for them then us, what is sick is wanting to hear new recording and not wanting to hear recordings cause it's 3/4th of black sabbath, so is it really black sabbath????????
    3/4 is better than nothing, and, Yes, it's still Black Sabbath.

  10. #10
    mikesline's Avatar
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    yeah i know 3/4 is better then nothing that's the pain i'm talking about,the wheels of confusion rolls on.............

  11. #11
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    It's 75% better than nothing!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    I disagree Sabbath Historian. Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer wanted Bill to be a part of this venture, but Bill backed out for his own reasons. I am sure that Ozzy's opinion of what constitutes Black Sabbath has not changed, but circumstances resulted in Bill opting out late in the day; that doesn't mean that they can't be friends still. Business and friendship can be two different things. There is no poison being espoused in the media by these guys, and all 4 members have preserved the dignity of one another in their public comments, so I don't see this as hypocritical. I also fully believe that Bill will be back in the future. Keep in mind that they wrote songs for a year when Bill opted out; by that time it was probably too late to consider scrapping the entire project. If Bill had opted out from day 1, there is a chance that the others would not have re-formed at all. I sense that you are stirring the pot a bit here and aren't as strongly opinionated as your post suggests.

    Interesting comment, 'N.I.D.'...the play on acronym IS intentional, by the way! Thank you for responding. You are ABSOLUTELY correct when you say that my post isn't as "strongly opinionated" as it suggests,.. OR as it might be interpreted, take your pick. However, I do think that, if the situation were reversed with Bill in and Ozzy out, does anybody really believe that the upcoming new album would go out under the Black Sabbath name? Frankly, if they even attempted to try Ozzy would be having a FIELD DAY in the press! Do you remember the lawsuit back in May 2009 between him and Tony? That is where I believe the hypocrisy stems from, 'N.I.D.' When all is said and done, the guys are bickering over money, plain and simple. Ultimately, in my opinion, since 1998 Ozzy has had the upper hand, legally speaking, when it comes to the "business" of Black Sabbath. I guess the "massive inferiority complex" that writer Mick Wall once claimed Ozzy had disappeared once he rejoined Sabbath!


    I remember when Ozzy plead to Tony in 2009 to "do the right thing" regarding the rights to the Sabbath name and ALL FOUR MEMBERS being properly compensated as they've gotten older. I think he should take his own advice and "do the right thing" ...for Bill. By the way, great comments everybody-BOTH PRO AND CON-on a very touchy subject that we all are passionate about in one way or another! That's the way it should be. That's why we're fans. So, without further ado, continue the discussion if you'd like! Thanks BSO for providing a terrific forum for us!

  13. #13
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
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    You make good points Historian. I guess we'll never really know. Fortunately, all 4 Sabs are being fairly quiet and respectful about this topic, so there is hope for a reconciliation at some point. If they didn't care, then I suspect they would all be slinging mud.

  14. #14
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    I've never been an Ozzy solo fan, other than hearing seeing him on MTV way back when, I never bought any of his solo stuff, was always loyal (to a fault) of Iommi's BS.. incarnations... BUT, that said, Ozzy earned his "bigger $hare", so to speak. Ozzy became bigger commercially than Sabbath ever dreamed of after the split, he's a world wide public figure, my 86 yr old mother knows who Ozzy is, her and my now deceased aunt use to watch his TV show... like it or not, IF, and I stress IF... it's about a share of the pie, and Ozzy's is bigger than the rest... so be it... it's because he's singing on this album that it will be/is BIG industry news... the world doesn't know Tony or Geezer or Bill like they know Ozzy, outside Sabbathdom... it's all about Oz... so let's not kid ourselves, if this album was Tony/Geez/Bill and fill in the blank singer... it WOULD NOT be garnishing a fraction of the industry and world interest it is getting now, and it would be a joke to call it Black Sabbath, sorry, the drummer no matter who he is does not make the sound of a band, the singer does, the no.1 recognizable element in ANY band... with the guitar second, a distant 2nd...it's a big deal because Ozzy is in the band... Bill Ward be damned, he's a pimple on most people's ass in terms of his importance to this project... he hasn't recorded jack crack with any Sabbath band since 1983 ,only 30 yrs ago..! and I stress, I was in Iommi''s camp all thru the years after the split... I'm not a Ozzy fanboy, but I am an Ozzy Sabbath fan big time... the fact is, Bill Ward doesn't make or break this deal, Ozzy does... because he's earned it.
    Last edited by Wicked Cricket; 03-12-2013 at 01:44 PM.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    I've never been an Ozzy solo fan, other than hearing seeing him on MTV way back when, I never bought any of his solo stuff, was always loyal (to a fault) of Iommi's BS.. incarnations... BUT, that said, Ozzy earned his "bigger $hare", so to speak. Ozzy became bigger commercially than Sabbath ever dreamed of after the split, he's a world wide public figure, my 86 yr old mother knows who Ozzy is, her and my now deceased aunt use to watch his TV show... like it or not, IF, and I stress IF... it's about a share of the pie, and Ozzy's is bigger than the rest... so be it... it's because he's singing on this album that it will be/is BIG industry news... the world doesn't know Tony or Geezer or Bill like they know Ozzy, outside Sabbathdom... it's all about Oz... so let's not kid ourselves, if this album was Tony/Geez/Bill and fill in the blank singer... it WOULD NOT be garnishing a fraction of the industry and world interest it is getting now, and it would be a joke to call it Black Sabbath, sorry, the drummer no matter who he is does not make the sound of a band, the singer does, the no.1 recognizable element in ANY band... with the guitar second, a distant 2nd...it's a big deal because Ozzy is in the band... Bill Ward be damned, he's a pimple on most people's ass in terms of his importance to this project... he hasn't recorded jack crack with any Sabbath band since 1983 ,only 30 yrs ago..! and I stress, I was in Iommi''s camp all thru the years after the split... I'm not a Ozzy fanboy, but I am an Ozzy Sabbath fan big time... the fact is, Bill Ward doesn't make or break this deal, Ozzy does... because he's earned it.


    Thanks for responding 'Wicked Cricket'. I certainly can understand your point of view, but if we're really being honest, these days Ozzy will NEVER be able to fill arenas like he can with Black Sabbath, WITHOUT the "crutch" of Ozzfest. The fact that he is in a stronger financial position should be even more reason to cut out the petty B.S. among ALL FOUR ORIGINAL MEMBERS and at least attempt to come to a more satisfying agreement. To your point, Black Sabbath is NOT the Ozzy Osbourne band. Even Ozzy knows that most fans today would rather see him in Sabbath than on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have sued Tony 4 years ago as I stated in an earlier response. For all intents and purposes, Ozzy knows that Sabbath is in far greater demand these days than he ever would be as a solo artist, or reality T.V. "star", and rightfully so. Great comment though, even though we disagree to an extent. Thanks BSO!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post

    Thanks for responding 'Wicked Cricket'. I certainly can understand your point of view, but if we're really being honest, these days Ozzy will NEVER be able to fill arenas like he can with Black Sabbath, WITHOUT the "crutch" of Ozzfest. The fact that he is in a stronger financial position should be even more reason to cut out the petty B.S. among ALL FOUR ORIGINAL MEMBERS and at least attempt to come to a more satisfying agreement. To your point, Black Sabbath is NOT the Ozzy Osbourne band. Even Ozzy knows that most fans today would rather see him in Sabbath than on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have sued Tony 4 years ago as I stated in an earlier response. For all intents and purposes, Ozzy knows that Sabbath is in far greater demand these days than he ever would be as a solo artist, or reality T.V. "star", and rightfully so. Great comment though, even though we disagree to an extent. Thanks BSO!
    I dunno man Ozzys last tour was very successful. I saw him at the ACC the place was full of 20,000 fans

  17. #17
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    Thanks for responding 'Wicked Cricket'. I certainly can understand your point of view, but if we're really being honest, these days Ozzy will NEVER be able to fill arenas like he can with Black Sabbath, WITHOUT the "crutch" of Ozzfest. The fact that he is in a stronger financial position should be even more reason to cut out the petty B.S. among ALL FOUR ORIGINAL MEMBERS and at least attempt to come to a more satisfying agreement. To your point, Black Sabbath is NOT the Ozzy Osbourne band. Even Ozzy knows that most fans today would rather see him in Sabbath than on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have sued Tony 4 years ago as I stated in an earlier response. For all intents and purposes, Ozzy knows that Sabbath is in far greater demand these days than he ever would be as a solo artist, or reality T.V. "star", and rightfully so. Great comment though, even though we disagree to an extent. Thanks BSO!
    Thx Historian... I'm just passionate, I don't know if it's strictly the $, I certainly agree that it should have been a 4 way equal split but I doubt that's how it went down, it just doesn't happen that way anymore... there's been many discussions about this, personally I believe Bill is Bill's worst enemy, I think he's a perfectionist to a fault maybe, and a very tediuous, serious person, I can see where he and the other 3 would buck heads when it came to recording a new album... he was in the fold early on, but opted out... no one beyond the inner circle really knows why, I imagine it's somewhat complex... good to see you here!
    Last edited by Wicked Cricket; 03-13-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  18. #18
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    I am disappointed but not surprised.

    Bill has not played on a Black Sabbath album since 1983 and he has not toured with Black Sabbath since a handful of dates in South America when Tony Martin was in the band...in 1994. When they did the Reunion shows they had Vinny Appice on standby just in case.

    We all get older. Bill is fortunate to be alive, after all he has put himself through with drugs and drink, and I'm sure he knows that. He's got a heart condition.

    I don't know how often he even sits down behind his drum kit, but as a former drummer myself, and much younger than Bill, I know that it's easy to lose the stamina for that.

    Having said that, I don't know of anyone who says that Bill is anything but, as Tony Martin called him, "a lovely guy."

    However, I think that this was Bill's last chance at grabbing the brass ring again. He's been waiting and waiting for Ozzy to get his shit together (he always maintained that he would not take part in any Sabbath projects without Ozzy), and perhaps he just waited too long.
    He is not here. He has risen!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    when in reality (no pun intended) he's MORE than content with just 3/4 of "Black Sabbath".

    Prove this.
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  20. #20
    Sabbathman's Avatar
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    The new album "13" is released by a band called Black Sabbath. It's got Tony's riffs and solos, Geezer's bass and lyrics and Ozzy's voice and melodies.

    I wish - I really wish - it was possible for Bill to be part of this, swinging and grooving the shit out of everyone, at least on the record if not on the tour. I guess he's been out of the game for too long. I don't know. I can't do anything but have a waning regret.

    My good friend persisted and got me a floor ticket for the Helsinki show. I paid it to him earlier today and I even gave him a 20 € gift card as a bonus so he can buy the new album once it's out. We both are stoked with all this.

    It's 2 days until the new single is out, 2 months until the new album is out and finally 7 months until the last grand heavy metal show of my life, Black Sabbath. Everything after this is a welcomed bonus. I just hope people will do their best to enjoy this and make it happen, the history of heavy metal fucking demands this to happen, the whole fucking cosmos is not complete until this is realized in the way it should be.

    I see a burning number 13, the end of bad luck for Black Sabbath and us fans. Let's try our best to enjoy this to the fullest possible extent without trying to undermine anything. We are already privileged, let's be thankful and hold on to what we have. It's going to be a BLAST!!!
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  21. #21
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    Good thread. Bill ward is my favorite drummer of all time. I don't think he is undermined by the other members. The 10 Sabbath studio albums he played on have set the footprints for hard rock/heavy metal drummers untill the end of time. Unfortunately the last 30 years he has been unable to complete projects and commitments . I do like his 2 studio albums and his drumming on the band Mezmerist EP is very good. It is too bad he never moved on from Sabbath because he could have been on a lot more albums since 1983. I have talked to Keith Lynch his guitar player through E-mails a couple of times and he swears Bill will come back on the radar again with new music and playing gigs. But the clock is ticking Bill.

  22. #22
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    Bill who? Is that the guy that keeps quitting before starting?

  23. #23

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    I think Bill was holding back on bad advice from his management.If his manager takes 20% of Bill's cash,the more cash Bill gets,the bigger the management 20% will be.I can hear him saying to Bill,' Hey,Bill....you were one of the originals,they can't have a reunion of the originals without you.It's obvious.You were one quarter of the band.Did Ozzy play the drums?No.Did Tony?Did Geezer?No.YOU did.They need you.They'll give me....erm....you.....more money.TRUST ME'.
    Prior to the previous reunion which spawned the live album,Bill used the reheasal studios my band used to get his chops back.(Not on the night we were there dammit!) I don't doubt his commitment to getting back in shape.He's had health problems and has been the most inactive of the four.I guess he only wants to play in THAT band.But I don't get the impression that the other three think anything other than they wish Bill was behind them on the kit.

  24. #24

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    If that's the case then his management screwed up because now they got $0!

    My impression is that Bill essentially has no management.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by WallOfSleep View Post
    If that's the case then his management screwed up because now they got $0!

    My impression is that Bill essentially has no management.
    Yup.Hence,the bad advice part of my post.Bill claiming he had not been offered a 'signable contract' smacks of lawyer/management speak.
    Seems the bluff was called.
    From Classic Rock:
    'Originally we wanted it to be the full,original Sabbath' Butler says,'Unforunately,once Bill's management or lawyers or whoever came into it,they just totally messed everything all up.But we don't want to start slagging Bill because we still love him'.
    Last edited by overhead; 04-22-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  26. #26
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    I think Bill has underminded himself.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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    Yes Bill has undermind himself in this situation... instead of being part of the historic and now epic final chapter(?) in Black Sabbath's history, Bill sits on the sidelines and looks well, for lack of a better word. really really stupid... I really think he lives in his own little world... still in '69...

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Yes Bill has undermind himself in this situation... instead of being part of the historic and now epic final chapter(?) in Black Sabbath's history, Bill sits on the sidelines and looks well, for lack of a better word. really really stupid... I really think he lives in his own little world... still in '69...
    Stop saying its epic, it not waaaaaa!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Yes Bill has undermind himself in this situation... instead of being part of the historic and now epic final chapter(?) in Black Sabbath's history, Bill sits on the sidelines and looks well, for lack of a better word. really really stupid... I really think he lives in his own little world... still in '69...
    Yes he has Wicked Cricket, and I have a feeling in the near future he would've regretted making such a choice.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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  30. #30

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    This whole situation is just SO unfortunate. I think there's so much he said/he said, I dunno/talk to his manager; no one is taking the blame, so it's really hard to point fingers, et al. I think, well, I know "I" thought of the original four as chums/brothers/mates; whatever; and in my "world" they watch out for each other and take care of each other like brothers/mates do; but then I think of actual brothers in the rock world (i.e. Davies, Gallagher, etc) and when I see the problems they have it's only expected that "mates" can tumble into the same situations. I think it's BEYOND a sin that Bill is not part of the reunion, it has been my wish/desire since 1983; 11/11/11 made me feel like I did when I was a kid at Christmas, I was beyond jazzed. Then when everything went down it felt so...personal. I "guess" the guys respect each other, they all keep saying they love each other etc; hell they sue each other and then hug months/years later; kinda hard to understand/grasp.? I dunno. Sure I feel Bill deserves what the others get, but I know that's not reality "draw wise" (Ozzy's the top banana and then Tony, etc). It seems the remaining band have no ill-will toward Bill, but it also doesn't seem (to me) that any one of them is going out of their respective way(s) to try and get him to come around, do a one off gig in the UK or anything like that, so maybe their "brotherhood" is all something in my head, something I imagine in my "geekdom brain?" I know I WOULD pick up the phone, I WOULD make an effort; to me, humble lil' ol' me, money is not more important that my friends, but I'm not a millionaire, etc. Maybe I'm just too naive? I don't think Tony, Geez or Oz would denounce anything Bill has done, or his legacy w/ Sabbath, I respect Bill as well for standing his ground, if it revolves around $$$, maybe he's just tired of always getting the short end of the "drum" stick? Maybe he wanted to see how much his "brothers" would fight for him, maybe he wanted to see if THEY though he was worth fighting for? Maybe we'll never know? All I know is as a fan of the four I'm saddened, I don't want to say disappointed, that makes me sound bigger or greater than them; I guess I just wish they had lived up to what I imagined them to be...a band and less a conglomerate. I still love them ALL, and I do think it's still Sabbath, just not "my" Sabbath.
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  31. #31

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    In the recent radio interview in New Zealand, Ozzy claims he doesn't remember really why Bill isn't part of the reunion. Why would he say that, or is it that he actually doesn't know? I don't really know how to make sense of it in either case.

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  32. #32
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    Not sure on the politics behind the whole bill situation but....

    BILL on the very slim chance you may actually read this please give the guys a call and join them on the tour!, they have said that the door is always open, so go put the bill ward twist on the new songs as only you can!. Fk money, the fans know YOUR the only sabbath drummer that matters.

    We love and miss you dude.
    Vote leave if u want totally cool either way

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderTheSun View Post
    In the recent radio interview in New Zealand, Ozzy claims he doesn't remember really why Bill isn't part of the reunion. Why would he say that, or is it that he actually doesn't know? I don't really know how to make sense of it in either case.
    Maybe because its all over and done & not worth dwelling upon further?

    Things are bad enough between Bill & the guys.. the constant barrage of questions (If not answered very tactfully) could result in more unnecessary drama. Who knows what could happen? Maybe if 13 does well they'll unearth the tapes from 12 years ago and in that event Bill CAN be available to tour in support of that?

    Im in agreement with all who want Bill involved. Seems to me though the constant questions about their drummer, when Bill himself has already posted the details online is just like an impish brat poking a beehive with a stick.
    The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by devstorm View Post
    Prove this.
    Thank you for responding 'devstorm'. It's great to see that some are still commenting on this particular thread. I'm well aware that this is a very touchy subject with Black Sabbath fans, but that's what fandom is all about. Great dialogue-BOTH PRO AND CON-is what makes a TRUE fan base, to my thinking. Having said that, to your point, just take a look at the latest promo photo: no Bill Ward to be found! The old adage of " a picture being worth a thousand words" easily applies here. Frankly, that's all the "proof" you need. Great comment by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    just take a look at the latest promo photo: no Bill Ward to be found! The old adage of " a picture being worth a thousand words" easily applies here. Frankly, that's all the "proof" you need. Great comment by the way.
    Your logic is so seriously flawed... why would they take a promo picture with someone who's not participating in the band? Furthermore Bill Ward issued a request to NOT be pictured on the Sabbath web site. SO WHY WOULD THEY INVOLVE HIM? So how is that undermining Bills contributions? So you're saying that not putting Bill in a picture completely erases his drumming from Master of Reality, Or his vocals from Technical Ecstasy?

    I dont need to rehash the details... suffice to say for whatever the reason, BILL WARD has had a falling out with Black Sabbath. To put it into terms you might understand, Bill Ward dumped Sabbath's offer to come back to work. Have you had a job where you felt disgruntled, or treated unfairly? Would you return to that job if they made you an offer to come back for a fraction of what you were paid the first time you worked there?
    The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

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    The Bill Ward is a touchy subject, it was for me too, I had the attitude no Bill No Sabbath.

    But you know what, Mr. Bill Ward had the opportunity to be a part of this historical event, and he chose not to be, because of some supposed unsignable contract, the way I look at, he should've done it for the fans if the contract was unsignable and have this new record 13 with his name on it for eternity.

    And as I come to see, I doubt it his 3 mates would've screwed him over with a contract that was unsignable.

    Bill didn't think about the fans who love him so much, he is my favorite all time drummer, but Sabbath is my favorite all time band and they are giving us loyal fans an album with the original frontman after 35 years, and I am happy and thrilled about that.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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    I wonder what the backlash would have been if Tony had said no way, unsignable contract, or the other 2...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    I wonder what the backlash would have been if Tony had said no way, unsignable contract, or the other 2...?
    That is unimaginable and unthinkable of the riff-meister.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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    Quote Originally Posted by devstorm View Post
    the constant barrage of questions

    What constant barrage of questions? I keep waiting for these journalists to ask deep probing questions - you know try to get to the bottom of the whole thing - but they all skirt the issue. If they do bother to ask, they just accept whatever answer is given with no follow up.

    Journalists these days don't really dig too deep into anything though so...
    In the fields the bodies burning, as the war machine keeps turning.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by devstorm View Post
    Your logic is so seriously flawed... why would they take a promo picture with someone who's not participating in the band? Furthermore Bill Ward issued a request to NOT be pictured on the Sabbath web site. SO WHY WOULD THEY INVOLVE HIM? So how is that undermining Bills contributions? So you're saying that not putting Bill in a picture completely erases his drumming from Master of Reality, Or his vocals from Technical Ecstasy?

    I dont need to rehash the details... suffice to say for whatever the reason, BILL WARD has had a falling out with Black Sabbath. To put it into terms you might understand, Bill Ward dumped Sabbath's offer to come back to work. Have you had a job where you felt disgruntled, or treated unfairly? Would you return to that job if they made you an offer to come back for a fraction of what you were paid the first time you worked there?

    Hi 'devstorm' , perhaps I didn't explain myself correctly. When I say that Ozzy is "MORE than content with only 3/4 of "Black Sabbath" I simply mean that Ozzy truly DOESN'T think that "there is ONLY ONE Black Sabbath: Butler, Iommi, Osbourne, AND WARD". He clearly thinks that Black Sabbath can exist as a trio AND as a NEW INCARNATION, whether anybody wants to believe that or not. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing this. Clearly, to me anyway, this blatantly implies that Bill truly is expendable in Ozzy's mind. In other words 'devstorm', by agreeing to go out as "Black Sabbath" with a new drummer, it shows that there obviously isn't "only ONE Black Sabbath", as Ozzy NOTORIOUSLY has said since 1997, if not longer. MY opinion, mind you.

    All this said, I'm still looking tremendously forward to the new album and tour. But, like it or not, as of this writing, it is NOT the ORIGINAL Black Sabbath. Great comment on your part, by the way! I enjoyed reading your point-of-view, even if we disagree. Thanks BSO!

    ---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    I wonder what the backlash would have been if Tony had said no way, unsignable contract, or the other 2...?
    Good point. The tour WOULD NOT BE TAKING PLACE AT ALL if the situations were reversed, no matter where you stand on this issue.
    Last edited by A Sabbath Historian; 05-02-2015 at 03:42 PM.

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