Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 68
  1. #1

    Default Are The Sabs Predictable?

    Sure, a new album is on the way. And sure, there will likely be some surprises contained within ...

    But do Sabbath continue to pander to the "metal" audience at the expense of exposing more of their musical character?

    Do they subscribe to some post-punk ethos where rock and roll has to fit into a certain sized bag and anything outside that bag is pretentious?

    I mean, think about it, Sabbath just played "down under," where "Changes" was a smash hit back in the day. Why not get Tony to pull up at a piano, get Geezer a mellotron and let Ozzy take a shot at "Changes"? Who cares if he can't sing it the way he could in '72? The crowd will help him on those soaring chorus bits ...

    And it would be so out of left field!

    Why not appear on Letterman or Saturday Night Live, but grab a big string section with a conductor and crank out "Spiral Architect"? I think the average non-believer would shit a brick if the band he knew for "Paranoid" suddenly pulled that out!

    Why not get Rick Wakeman to join them on stage at one show in London and do "Sabbra Cadabra"?

    Why not suddenly, out of the freaking blue, perform "She's Gone" on Jay Leno with Tony on acoustic and a string section?

    The "metal" audience is already sold and this may be about it for these guys. Why not expand the circle even further by stepping out of the "box" they so often stepped out of on record?
    Last edited by Jeff; 05-06-2013 at 08:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,720

    Default

    I think they should do what the Rolling Stones did a couple tours ago, fans vote on line for a song to be played, the most votes and that song and the voting result are announced right there on stage... I remember Star Star (Star Funky Star) won one night and the Stones all looked at eachother like what chords... ok, this key..., yea got it, let's go! Imagine what a fan vote like that would be like, I think you do it via your cell phone so it's the actual fans at that particular concert who get to vote... that would be cool, I agree with your ideas, a little surpise out of the bag kind of thing is great...

  3. #3

    Default

    It's because with the exception of Spiral Architect those more expansive songs are generally looked back on as self-indulgent and sort of ridiculous. I love them but the non-hardcore fan sees them as bad memories, the dark spots on otherwise great albums that are better left forgotten. If they broke out Changes or Shes Gone at a concert that would be time for most of the crowd to go get a drink, or maybe wonder if something was slipped in their drink.

    Not to mention Ozzy really couldn't sing any of those tunes anymore anyway.

    Predictability isn't a bad thing. People love Sabbath for their heavy stuff, not their experimental fluff. It's the same reason you're never going to have a Sabbath show without War Pigs, Iron Man, Paranoid, etc. If those songs weren't in the set there'd be an outcry because thats what people expect when they buy their ticket.

    Not that I don't want deeper cuts or a little branching out or unpredictability, just in a different direction. I'd love to see Sleeping Village and Wicked World in the set somehow. Remember when they did medleys at Ozzfest? That was cool, I think it would be nice for them to bring that back instead of running through an instrumental of Symptom. Give us a verse or two of some underappreciated classics or things that might not fit in the whole set. A bit of Rock and Roll Doctor or heck, maybe a verse of Megalomania (I'm confident Ozzy could handle it, the verses are very low and slow)! Or a more conventional (and abbreviated) take on Solitude as an intro to Into the Void. Intros are sweet! One problem with Sabbath compared to Ozzy is the songs are so long you are limited by what you can fit in a two hour set, I'd like to see them tackle this in a more creative way instead of spending 20 minutes on two new songs.

  4. #4
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    It's because with the exception of Spiral Architect those more expansive songs are generally looked back on as self-indulgent and sort of ridiculous. I love them but the non-hardcore fan sees them as bad memories, the dark spots on otherwise great albums that are better left forgotten. If they broke out Changes or Shes Gone at a concert that would be time for most of the crowd to go get a drink, or maybe wonder if something was slipped in their drink.

    Not to mention Ozzy really couldn't sing any of those tunes anymore anyway.

    Predictability isn't a bad thing. People love Sabbath for their heavy stuff, not their experimental fluff. It's the same reason you're never going to have a Sabbath show without War Pigs, Iron Man, Paranoid, etc. If those songs weren't in the set there'd be an outcry because thats what people expect when they buy their ticket.
    Correct you are sir. Those of us who want the deep cuts are fewer by comparison. It was like Led Zeppelin at O2. I wished that they had played a 30 minute acoustic set with Battle of Evermore, That's the Way, Friends, and Black Country Woman (or a similar set), but it was not to be. So yes, Sabbath are very predictable, but that seems to be the nature of the biz these days. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing, but I was struck at how static Sabbath were in the concert that was posted from Australia. I mean, they were glued to their stage stickers and barely moved. Geezer was the only one who had a somewhat dynamic persona, and of course Tommy doing his tricep stretches to the ceiling. They aint kids anymore, but having seen Ozzy before, he was far more mobile; probably because he wasn't as reliant on the teleprompter. I would rather see them being professional and reserved than a bunch of goons in any case.
    Last edited by Now in Darkness; 05-06-2013 at 09:08 PM.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Correct you are sir. Those of us who want the deep cuts are fewer by comparison. It was like Led Zeppelin at O2. I wished that they had played a 30 minute acoustic set with Battle of Evermore, That's the Way, Friends, and Black Country Woman (or a similar set), but it was not to be. So yes, Sabbath are very predictable, but that seems to be the nature of the biz these days. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing, but I was struck at how static Sabbath were in the concert that was posted from Australia. I mean, they were glued to their stage stickers and barely moved. Geezer was the only one who had a somewhat dynamic persona. They aint kids anymore, but having seen Ozzy before, he was far more mobile; probably because he wasn't as reliant on the teleprompter. I would rather see them being professional and reserved than a bunch of goons in any case.
    If only we could get another show out of Zep done Earl's Court style...

    Still, we're getting Under the Sun and Behind the Wall of Sleep every night. In today's day and age those are deep cuts. I'd just like to see the band take this (possibly final) opportunity to stuff every bit of song they can into this tour. Unfortunately odds are by the time they hit NA the sets will be even shorter and even shorter than that when they get to my neck of the woods.

  6. #6

    Default

    But please take note of my examples ...

    This thread is not meant to suggest that they suddenly play "Changes" and "She's Gone" as regulars in the setlist.

    I'm offering ideas for unique, "one off" ideas to mix things up. Maybe at most one leg of a tour gets something unique, as in the example for "Changes," but more so I am talking about solitary concepts. They come out and burn through "Spiral Architect" on Letterman or something. And they do something like play with an orchestra ONE. FREAKING. TIME.

    Live, Sabbath have let themselves become a bit one dimensional. The idea that this is all fans will accept is nonsense, IMO. This is all fans are offered. And I have to imagine it also impacts the type of fans they are attracting to the live show in the first place.

  7. #7

    Default

    Why would they go on Letterman to play a song from 40 years ago that nobody knows and is drastically different to most of their catalogue? That makes no sense.

    Sabbath aren't Zeppelin. Zeppelin was highly multitextural right from the beginning, playing in a wide variety of styles and genres. The majority of Sabbath's catalogue is based around a single sound, the Sabbath sound, and whenever they strayed away from that is was either brief or regarded as a bad decision. History remembers the Sabbath sound and thats what people are paying 150 bucks to see.

  8. #8
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    Why would they go on Letterman to play a song from 40 years ago that nobody knows and is drastically different to most of their catalogue? That makes no sense.

    Sabbath aren't Zeppelin. Zeppelin was highly multitextural right from the beginning, playing in a wide variety of styles and genres. The majority of Sabbath's catalogue is based around a single sound, the Sabbath sound, and whenever they strayed away from that is was either brief or regarded as a bad decision. History remembers the Sabbath sound and thats what people are paying 150 bucks to see.
    Absolutely. You can't please all of the people all of the time. From what I can see of the current tour and set list, they are pleasing most of the people most of the time, and that is an achievement in itself.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    Why would they go on Letterman to play a song from 40 years ago that nobody knows and is drastically different to most of their catalogue? That makes no sense.

    Sabbath aren't Zeppelin. Zeppelin was highly multitextural right from the beginning, playing in a wide variety of styles and genres. The majority of Sabbath's catalogue is based around a single sound, the Sabbath sound, and whenever they strayed away from that is was either brief or regarded as a bad decision. History remembers the Sabbath sound and thats what people are paying 150 bucks to see.
    Meh. I don't agree at all.

    What separated Sabbath in terms of their experimentation was that they always sounded like Sabbath. Acoustic sections? Sabbath. Ballads? Sabbath. Strings? Sabbath. Horns!? Sabbath!

    Zeppelin, for all of their strengths, actually end up revealing way too much about their influences. When they went acoustic it sounds like: "We've been listening to Fairport Convention, CSNY and Joni Mitchell, so now we're going to have an acoustic thing." It's great, but not up to the standard of organic innovation that Sabbath always brought to the table.

    I'm not suggesting that Sabbath do acoustic sets, but wondering why they wouldn't consider doing the occasional thing to "shock" an audience? They've always done this on albums and they aren't getting any younger. Why not pull out an idea or two from deep left field? Even if it just for one TV appearance or something, I am simply posing the question as to whether it might be of creative benefit?
    Last edited by Jeff; 05-06-2013 at 09:41 PM.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Meh. I don't agree at all.

    What separated Sabbath in terms of their experimentation was that they always sounded like Sabbath. Acoustic sections? Sabbath. Ballads? Sabbath. Strings? Sabbath. Horns!? Sabbath!

    Zeppelin, for all of their strengths, actually end up revealing way too much about their influences. When they went acoustic it sounds like: "We've been listening to Fairport Convention, CSNY and Joni Mitchell, so now we're going to have an acoustic thing." It's great, but not up to the standard of organic innovation that Sabbath always brought to the table.

    I'm not suggesting that Sabbath do acoustic sets, but wondering why they wouldn't consider doing the occasional thing to "shock" an audience. They've always done this on albums and they aren't getting any younger. Why not pull out an idea or two from deep left field? Even if it just for one TV appearance or something, I am simply posing the question as to whether it might be of creative benefit?
    Well for starters the reason for doing TV is to promote the album and tour to the masses. Not the venue to pull out a deep cut.

    And shocking the audience is one thing, but there are good surprises and bad surprises. Breaking out a mellow sappy Sabbath song will just confuse the audience and bomb. Breaking out an underplayed heavier number will light heads on fire. Thats where the money is.

  11. #11
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Zeppelin, for all of their strengths, actually end up revealing way too much about their influences. When they went acoustic it sounds like: "We've been listening to Fairport Convention, CSNY and Joni Mitchell, so now we're going to have an acoustic thing." It's great, but not up to the standard of organic innovation that Sabbath always brought to the table.
    Come on, that's just silly Jeff. Had a listen to NSD lately? Air Dance in particular? Wonderful album, but if that isn't following the crowd, nothing is. That's the way it works. Everyone is influenced by someone and following some sort of trend to stay viable. Otherwise we would all still be listening to that horrible '80's metal sound.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Come on, that's just silly Jeff. Had a listen to NSD lately? Air Dance in particular? Wonderful album, but if that isn't following the crowd, nothing is. That's the way it works. Everyone is influenced by someone and following some sort of trend to stay viable. Otherwise we would all still be listening to that horrible '80's metal sound.
    Exactly. Say what you will about Zeppelin and their transparent influences, but there is no singular defineable Zeppelin sound. That isn't the case with Sabbath. With Zeppelin acoustics and strings and whatnot was normal, with Sabbath it was a departure. I hardly think it was an evolution, or at least not a natural one. It wasn't a creative evolution, it was a desperation to fulfill an imaginary need to progress and they did it in the most cliched way possible with results that were just straight up out-of-character. It's only well recieved in hindsight by a select few. It's been shown very clearly that it isn't wanted.

  13. #13
    hipster doofus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Chicagoland, IL
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    It's only well recieved in hindsight by a select few. It's been shown very clearly that it isn't wanted.
    An unfortunate truth. I'd die very, very happy if they pulled out Gypsy or Air Dance this summer, but it will never happen. The general paying populous is unfamiliar with those tracks and doesn't want to hear them. It would be wasted effort on their part to practice, rehearse, etc. etc. to get next to no reaction from the bulk of any crowd.

    Look at the backlash they've received from those albums in general over the decades. As much as a lot of us here would love it, it'd be a virtual shit storm. It isn't just Sabbath that's "predictable." It's the majority of long term acts that built a reputation like they did. The general concert going crowd are neanderthals and the rest of us deep down diehards have to deal with it accordingly.
    ***Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of other internet people, the internet police or the internet in general. It is to be assumed that all sentences are automatically followed by "IMO, BUDDY" as to not offend other internet people and start an internet fight.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Come on, that's just silly Jeff. Had a listen to NSD lately? Air Dance in particular? Wonderful album, but if that isn't following the crowd, nothing is. That's the way it works. Everyone is influenced by someone and following some sort of trend to stay viable. Otherwise we would all still be listening to that horrible '80's metal sound.
    Really? And to what exactly do you trace "Air Dance"?

    I think I'm fairly well versed in music, and I'm not sure I've ever heard anything like it.

    But my point is more a general than a specific. I don't meant to "put down" Zeppelin, I just don't think they were as innovative as Sabbath even with all of their so-called "diversity." When Sabbath break into a ballad or something acoustic, it sounds like nobody but Sabbath; period. That's just how they rolled. That doesn't make it "better," but it does make it unique. If part of their audience cannot or will not appreciate that, it's their loss, IMO.

  15. #15
    axeman_12656's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Pikeville, KY
    Posts
    2,030

    Default

    Call me crazy but I think playing 4 songs (1 a bonus track) from the new album 2 months before it is released "shocked" not only the audience but All of us!!

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    Exactly. Say what you will about Zeppelin and their transparent influences, but there is no singular defineable Zeppelin sound. That isn't the case with Sabbath. With Zeppelin acoustics and strings and whatnot was normal, with Sabbath it was a departure. I hardly think it was an evolution, or at least not a natural one. It wasn't a creative evolution, it was a desperation to fulfill an imaginary need to progress and they did it in the most cliched way possible with results that were just straight up out-of-character. It's only well recieved in hindsight by a select few. It's been shown very clearly that it isn't wanted.
    Can you cite some examples of "cliched" Sabbath "experiments?"

  17. #17
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Jeff, love you brother, but you are dreaming, and taking on one of the most diverse rock bands ever. It is hard to find that credible.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Can you cite some examples of "cliched" Sabbath "experiments?"
    Heavy band wants to branch out? Add strings, synths and acoustic guitars! Thats about as cliche as it gets and it's a very transparent bid for the image of sophistication. I love Shes Gone but it's just so tired sounding. Changes even moreso. When Sabbath was really putting their heads together they were coming out with true evolution with songs like Megalomania and The Writ, big leaps based on their established sound.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Jeff, love you brother, but you are dreaming, and taking on one of the most diverse rock bands ever. It is hard to find that credible.
    I can't say that I follow your issue with this at all. If Zeppelin is your "other favorite band" or something, then maybe a dose of "lighten up" is in order? Are you shocked to think that some Sabbath fans on a Sabbath board might find Sabbath to be a more innovative band than Zeppelin? If so, get over it, man.

    I never brought them up in the first place and this really has nothing to do with them.

  20. #20
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Folks, let's put the fanboy blinders down for just a second
    Yes, please do! Clearly you aren't thinking straight if you honestly believe some of the contrasts and comparisons you made between Sabbath and Zeppelin. They are both amazing, but seriously? I didn't bring up Zeppelin either, but your opinions are just silly.
    Last edited by Now in Darkness; 05-06-2013 at 10:45 PM.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    Heavy band wants to branch out? Add strings, synths and acoustic guitars! Thats about as cliche as it gets and it's a very transparent bid for the image of sophistication. I love Shes Gone but it's just so tired sounding. Changes even moreso. When Sabbath was really putting their heads together they were coming out with true evolution with songs like Megalomania and The Writ, big leaps based on their established sound.
    I'm glad you bring those songs up.

    "Megalomania" or "The Writ." Imagine hearing the band play one of those songs, with the keyboards done properly. If they can't do them regularly because of Ozzy's voice, technical challenges with production or what not, why not a once in a lifetime performance?

    I actually rate "The Writ" as one of the top 10 achievements in rock history. I wonder how many others might feel the same way if it weren't stuck as the finale of an album that some boneheads don't even list as essential!?

    On a side note, anybody notice this "first five albums" talk lately? For years, people always said the "first four" or "first six" when referring to their favorite Sabbath records, but recently I have heard more people talking about the "first five." I mean, who leaves out SABOTAGE!

    ---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Yes, please do! Clearly you aren't thinking straight if you honestly believe some of the contrasts and comparisons you made between Sabbath and Zeppelin. They are both amazing, but seriously? I didn't bring up Zeppelin either, but your opinions are just silly.
    Could you be more specific? You've just flat out lost me here.

    What is it that you find "silly?"

  22. #22
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I'm glad you bring those songs up.

    "Megalomania" or "The Writ." Imagine hearing the band play one of those songs, with the keyboards done properly. If they can't do them regularly because of Ozzy's voice, technical challenges with production or what not, why not a once in a lifetime performance?

    I actually rate "The Writ" as one of the top 10 achievements in rock history. I wonder how many others might feel the same way if it weren't stuck as the finale of an album that some boneheads don't even list as essential!?

    On a side note, anybody notice this "first five albums" talk lately? For years, people always said the "first four" or "first six" when referring to their favorite Sabbath records, but recently I have heard more people talking about the "first five." I mean, who leaves out SABOTAGE!

    ---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 AM ----------



    Could you be more specific? You've just flat out lost me here.

    What is it that you find "silly?"
    62_SG said it best above. Read his posts, as I concur fully.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I'm glad you bring those songs up.

    "Megalomania" or "The Writ." Imagine hearing the band play one of those songs, with the keyboards done properly. If they can't do them regularly because of Ozzy's voice, technical challenges with production or what not, why not a once in a lifetime performance?

    I actually rate "The Writ" as one of the top 10 achievements in rock history. I wonder how many others might feel the same way if it weren't stuck as the finale of an album that some boneheads don't even list as essential!?

    On a side note, anybody notice this "first five albums" talk lately? For years, people always said the "first four" or "first six" when referring to their favorite Sabbath records, but recently I have heard more people talking about the "first five." I mean, who leaves out SABOTAGE!

    ---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 AM ----------



    Could you be more specific? You've just flat out lost me here.

    What is it that you find "silly?"
    This 'first five albums' thing, might be due to some of the band saying that '13' is the album they should have done after SBS. I think I recall Ozzy saying that.
    This may have subconsciously caused a few people to forget about Sabotage's impact, even a little.

  24. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I'm glad you bring those songs up.

    "Megalomania" or "The Writ." Imagine hearing the band play one of those songs, with the keyboards done properly. If they can't do them regularly because of Ozzy's voice, technical challenges with production or what not, why not a once in a lifetime performance?

    I actually rate "The Writ" as one of the top 10 achievements in rock history. I wonder how many others might feel the same way if it weren't stuck as the finale of an album that some boneheads don't even list as essential!?

    On a side note, anybody notice this "first five albums" talk lately? For years, people always said the "first four" or "first six" when referring to their favorite Sabbath records, but recently I have heard more people talking about the "first five." I mean, who leaves out SABOTAGE![COLOR="silver"]
    Well as I said above, I'd love to see the band take a crack at Megalomania or at least part of it. That is something I'd love to hear. The Writ? Not so much because I don't think Ozzy could muster up the energy needed, even for one show. Thats a song bursting with confidence and thats something Ozzy notoriously struggles with.

    As for the "first five," it really is the "first four" for the demographic I'm talking about but SBS always seems to sneak onto that plate as well. For me personally it's the "first seven", I have a real love for Technical Ectasy that I can't explain and I'd love to see All Moving Parts (Stand Still) in a live capacity.

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    62_SG said it best above. Read his posts, as I concur fully.
    I've read his posts but your "silly" issue still eludes me. Perhaps you are confusing the term innovation with diversity?

    Sabbath, thankfully, never felt the need to try to do everything. That was never their bag. Hence, "diversity" is not something they would be able or even want to compete with when it comes to a band like Zeppelin, Queen or others. My only point is that when Sabbath thought outside the box, it tended to come from a very original place. You take the acoustic break on "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath," or the end of "Symptom Of The Universe." This isn't "Sabbath are listening to West Coast folk" and decided to do their spin on it. It seems to come from a very organic place. I don't know how they did it, but they were simply innovators on a level that was almost unrivaled during the 70s.

    Geezer was once asked: "Why do you guys do ballads? Other bands do ballads."

    His response?

    Other bands do ballads, but nobody does a ballad like Black Sabbath.

    The famous British journalist Chris Welch compared "Changes" to "Stairway To Heaven" in his book on Sabbath. Feeling strongly that is rivaled Zeppelin's "classic." That Ozzy's vocal performance was simply unparalleled and Iommi's piano accompaniment perfect. He had reservrations about the use of mellotron and seemed to think with just piano it would have been better, but I think he'd be in the minority with that opinion.

    I'm not sure of "She's Gone" and I'd far rather see them do something else, but do folks here realize Marie Rottrova had a mega hit with that song in Czechoslovakia? That it is still sung there today on "American Idol" like shows? You see, the melodic content is there, and it's brilliant. And it's Sabbath. It's part of who they were.
    Last edited by Jeff; 05-07-2013 at 12:07 AM.

  26. #26
    Now in Darkness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I've read his posts but your "silly" issue still eludes me. Perhaps you are confusing the term innovation with diversity?

    Sabbath, thankfully, never felt the need to try to do everything. That was never their bag. Hence, "diversity" is not something they would be able to or even want to compete with when it comes to a band like Zeppelin, Queen or others. My only point is that when Sabbath thought outside the box, it tended to come from a very original place. You take the acoustic break on "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath," or the end of "Symptom Of The Universe." This isn't "Sabbath are listening to West Coast folk" and decided to do their spin on it. It seems to come from a very organic place. I don't know how they did it, but they were simply innovators on a level that was almost unrivaled during the 70s.

    Geezer was once asked: Why do you guys do ballads? Other bands do ballads.

    His response?

    Other bands do ballads, but nobody does a ballad like Black Sabbath.

    I'm not sure of "She's Gone" and I'd far rather see them do something else, but do folks here realize Marie Rottrova had a mega hit with that song in Romania? That it is still sung there today on "American Idol" like shows? You see, the melodic content is there, and it's brilliant. And it's Sabbath. It's part of who they were.
    Fair enough. I find it impossible to compare and contrast Sabbath and Zeppelin, as they are both utterly amazing. I just cannot see clear to critique one in favor of the other, as to my way of thinking, doing so is splitting the most thinnest of hairs, and not worthwhile. Anyway, we're good; everyone has there own opinion on these subjective discussions and I respect yours.
    Casting his shadow, weaving his spell, funny clothes, tinkling bell.

  27. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Now in Darkness View Post
    Fair enough. I find it impossible to compare and contrast Sabbath and Zeppelin, as they are both utterly amazing. I just cannot see clear to critique one in favor of the other, as to my way of thinking, doing so is splitting the most thinnest of hairs, and not worthwhile. Anyway, we're good; everyone has there own opinion on these subjective discussions and I respect yours.
    No worries and I basically agree with you. It was only because they were used as the basis for comparison that I argued the point.

    One thing Sabbath had in their blood was originality. I think when the story of rock is written, few will be able to compete with them in this respect. That was my main point. And perhaps even part of their fan base overlooks the fact that they were so much more than "metal," but many would probably be fascinated by some of the other things that they bring to the musical table. As they get older, I can't help but wonder if they think about exploring a bit more in terms of what they offer the general public. Converted fans aren't going anywhere. Their brand is safe. If Tony and Ozzy came out and played "Changes" on Letterman and Ozzy messed up the vocals and Tony made some mistakes, they will still pack arenas. But it would really show some "balls" to be proud of some of their other accomplishments besides riffs and soaring rock music. I would argue that it's mainly the one dimensional music fan who would not hear the brilliance in some of their "ballads," but I've offered other possibilities.

    Frankly, hearing them do "Spiral Architect" with a string section would simply be incredible, IMO. Personally, I would far prefer that to an an "unplugged" thing, but the point of this thread is to open up discussions about what dedicated fans perceive as possible ways they could push the envelope at this stage of the game.

    Realistic? No. But that isn't the point of every thread here, is it?

  28. #28
    devstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    4,058

    Default

    Sabbath shouldn't go on US Late night talk shows. They're always treated as some sort of spectacle, rarely with respect, and even then the shows are typically pandering to the harder audience during times they temporarily want to bump their ratings by adding an extra 100,000 to their viewership (can anyone say CSI?). Then they have the stiff clean cut host do his monologue dressed as Lemmy, or have Biker sluts escort him to his mark, or some other sort of douchebag stunt. Not to mention they'll only get about 3 minutes of face time on any of these shows. They'll never get the amount of time a legendary rock band like the Stones got on Jimmy Fallon a few years ago(a segment every day for 5 days); or what Dave Letterman gave Zeppelin a few months ago (Not to mention the honor Obama gave them, although THAT I'd like to happen). You might not realize by my rant, but I like Conan, Kimmell, and Letterman a lot. But dare I say it, from what I've seen from the UK Talk shows, they pay a little more respect to their own, (although they have their share of douchebags as well). The US media machine is fickle and compartmentalized up the fucken ass. Black Sabbath are capable of a lot, but according to the US media they'll always be "That Devil Band" or worse that guy "Ozzy from The Osbournes show's band."

    These days If you really wanted to push Sabbath onto the mainstream masses in America you do the following..

    1) Have them appear on American Idol.
    2) Offer a free cup of new Starbucks Dark Roast with every Download... or offer an exclusive track for download if you buy a starbucks gift card worth $5.00 or more.
    3) WalMart exclusive... although having a song titled God Is Dead on the album... that aint happening.
    4) Feature She's Gone, or Changes in the next Twilight or Hunger Games movie...

    Anyway I want Sabbath to be a resounding success. But I also think they have integrity.. and stooping to the level of being the butt of some asshole like Jay Leno's jokes isnt the way. Furthermore I have seen the bad side of these types of things when good things get too popular with the wrong people. When the idiot asshole jocks started going to see Metallica just to beat up metalheads having a good time in the slam pits; when families who had no clue about metal started showing up to Ozzfest; and when George Bush(A FUCKING War Pig I might add) invited Ozzy to the White House correspondents dinner (the ultimate in pandering). Sabbath are legends, they know it, you know it, and I know it. Let those who are curious enough to delve into the back catalogue, do so. They'll get enlightened.

    Assuming Sabbath was to do all you propose Jeff, just by the law of averages, most people won't really be all that compelled to go out an buy a 35 year old album, and Sabbath certainly aren't going to do something that doesn't promote 13 on some talk show anyway. I think you'll see either Ozzy or Ozzy & another Black Sabbath member appear on Howard Stern's radio show in the US (And they'll get 90 minutes!); and if you're lucky Jimmy Kimmell for a performance of a 3 minute song off 13.

    Anyway let the shallow naysayers dismiss Sabbath like total idiots. In the end we know they're capable of a lot more music than they are given credit for. But some people will never get past the name, or the image. And those people should stay in their fucken American Idol, Kardashian, Jersey Shore, Xtra, TMZ cocoons.
    Last edited by devstorm; 05-07-2013 at 01:08 AM.
    The best blueberry muffins I ever had landed 6 people in prison, three for life.

  29. #29
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Soria Moria, Ųstenfor sol og vestenfor måne, Norge
    Posts
    8,498

    Default

    They should pull out the ol` Moog and do Who Are You with Ozzy playing it. Or dance around naked trying to re-create Fluff.
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    They should pull out the ol` Moog and do Who Are You with Ozzy playing it. Or dance around naked trying to re-create Fluff.
    Or recreate FX.

  31. #31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by devstorm View Post
    Sabbath shouldn't go on US Late night talk shows. They're always treated as some sort of spectacle, rarely with respect, and even then the shows are typically pandering to the harder audience during times they temporarily want to bump their ratings by adding an extra 100,000 to their viewership (can anyone say CSI?). Then they have the stiff clean cut host do his monologue dressed as Lemmy, or have Biker sluts escort him to his mark, or some other sort of douchebag stunt. Not to mention they'll only get about 3 minutes of face time on any of these shows. They'll never get the amount of time a legendary rock band like the Stones got on Jimmy Fallon a few years ago(a segment every day for 5 days); or what Dave Letterman gave Zeppelin a few months ago (Not to mention the honor Obama gave them, although THAT I'd like to happen). You might not realize by my rant, but I like Conan, Kimmell, and Letterman a lot. But dare I say it, from what I've seen from the UK Talk shows, they pay a little more respect to their own, (although they have their share of douchebags as well). The US media machine is fickle and compartmentalized up the fucken ass. Black Sabbath are capable of a lot, but according to the US media they'll always be "That Devil Band" or worse that guy "Ozzy from The Osbournes show's band."

    These days If you really wanted to push Sabbath onto the mainstream masses in America you do the following..

    1) Have them appear on American Idol.
    2) Offer a free cup of new Starbucks Dark Roast with every Download... or offer an exclusive track for download if you buy a starbucks gift card worth $5.00 or more.
    3) WalMart exclusive... although having a song titled God Is Dead on the album... that aint happening.
    4) Feature She's Gone, or Changes in the next Twilight or Hunger Games movie...

    Anyway I want Sabbath to be a resounding success. But I also think they have integrity.. and stooping to the level of being the butt of some asshole like Jay Leno's jokes isnt the way. Furthermore I have seen the bad side of these types of things when good things get too popular with the wrong people. When the idiot asshole jocks started going to see Metallica just to beat up metalheads having a good time in the slam pits; when families who had no clue about metal started showing up to Ozzfest; and when George Bush(A FUCKING War Pig I might add) invited Ozzy to the White House correspondents dinner (the ultimate in pandering). Sabbath are legends, they know it, you know it, and I know it. Let those who are curious enough to delve into the back catalogue, do so. They'll get enlightened.

    Assuming Sabbath was to do all you propose Jeff, just by the law of averages, most people won't really be all that compelled to go out an buy a 35 year old album, and Sabbath certainly aren't going to do something that doesn't promote 13 on some talk show anyway. I think you'll see either Ozzy or Ozzy & another Black Sabbath member appear on Howard Stern's radio show in the US (And they'll get 90 minutes!); and if you're lucky Jimmy Kimmell for a performance of a 3 minute song off 13.

    Anyway let the shallow naysayers dismiss Sabbath like total idiots. In the end we know they're capable of a lot more music than they are given credit for. But some people will never get past the name, or the image. And those people should stay in their fucken American Idol, Kardashian, Jersey Shore, Xtra, TMZ cocoons.
    Some very interesting points.

    But I think their Letterman appearance years ago was very strong. In all the years I've seen that show, I can't ever recall an audience going that crazy but Ozzy had them cheering and yelling like mad.

    Still, the point of this thread isn't really about what show they could do so much as what they could do in order to remove themselves from the "routine" they have long been in insofar as what they are willing to do live.

    It seems to me that they feel strongly that the whole acoustic set idea is not their bag. That side is something they reserve for albums. They played "Changes" a few times back in early 1973, and the last Martin-era band brought it out a time or two in Japan, but basically these guys don't do it. They have a wealth of interesting stuff on albums that is just never touched. They've never played "Planet Caravan" or "Solitude." They've never played live with an orchestra or even a string section. They almost never bring out "guests." What about even a Brian May appearance again?

    I hope it's becoming a bit more clear what I am driving at. Basically, what could they do to break the monotony? Maybe most fans think the new album will be enough for that and I don't disagree, but I can't help but wonder if these guys are really going to start to think about what they could do which would fall "outside the box," as it were. I speak exclusively in terms of live performance, not recorded output. The latter has often yielded an area for them by which they were willing to explore.

    Maybe they feel that part of their legacy is that they didn't subject audiences to what some might feel was pretentious? They delivered what audiences wanted from them?
    Last edited by Jeff; 05-07-2013 at 02:01 AM.

  32. #32
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Soria Moria, Ųstenfor sol og vestenfor måne, Norge
    Posts
    8,498

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetSymptom View Post
    Or recreate FX.
    I meant FX, ofcourse... Would've been great seing them coked up and naked, running around in a circle banging Tony's guitar with their crosses.
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

  33. #33

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    I meant FX, ofcourse... Would've been great seing them coked up and naked, running around in a circle banging Tony's guitar with their crosses.
    That it would be, though they'd probably stay clothed these days

  34. #34
    Gijsco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Nijmegen, Netherlands
    Posts
    75

    Default

    As many people said that a stadium wouldn't like these more forgotten songs, wouldn't it be cool if Sabbath would play some smaller venues with a '100% no-hit show'.
    And when you want to buy it, you'll get the warning that they won't be playing Paranoid, War Pigs, Iron Man, etc.
    I know my idea is retarded, but I still like it!

  35. #35
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,720

    Default

    The fan vote at the concert guarantees the crowd, by majority vote, gets to hear a song they want... the "risk" is the band doesn't know what it will be so they have to play it unrehearsed..., which I think would be fun, no one's going to get pissed off even of they screw it up some... my bet is Supernaut which thery never played live other than as an intro to a drum solo, or maybe A National Acrobat... whatever, bottom line, the fans determine what they will play, I doubt you'll ever see that, but it is a "what if" thread... how we got into a BS/Zep comparison I don't know..

    Can you imagine Ozzy trying to remember any of the lyrics to a song not loaded into his telepromter... it would be hilarious... hey a good laugh is a good laugh..

  36. #36
    axeman_12656's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Pikeville, KY
    Posts
    2,030

    Default

    Ozzy did Changes in 1992 for the Live and Loud DVD with Zakk Wylde on piano.


    By the way... The live version of BLACK SABBATH from the reunited Sabbath on the Live and Loud CD / DVD is very under-rated. Great version of that song.

  37. #37
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,720

    Default

    They could bring out the bongos and acoustic guitars for Planet Caravan... that would be a great break in the show, it's easy to sing... great mood tune... fits in with their darkest best stuff...

  38. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    I think they should do what the Rolling Stones did a couple tours ago, fans vote on line for a song to be played, the most votes and that song and the voting result are announced right there on stage... I remember Star Star (Star Funky Star) won one night and the Stones all looked at eachother like what chords... ok, this key..., yea got it, let's go! Imagine what a fan vote like that would be like, I think you do it via your cell phone so it's the actual fans at that particular concert who get to vote... that would be cool, I agree with your ideas, a little surpise out of the bag kind of thing is great...
    This! Joe, interested in forwarding this idea to the band?

    As for Spiral Architect being played live, I would probably jizz my pants if that scenario realized. I'm sure that if Ozzy'd still have the chops to sing stuff like Spiral, The Thrill Of It All, Megalomania and SBS they'd moret han happily add them to the setlist.

    Planet Caravan and Solitude would be realistic choises though, especially the latter. I reckon Ozzy would sound great doing it! He may have lost his high register, but his lower register has gained more timbre as the years have passed by.
    "The consequence of conscience/Is that you'll be left somewhere/Swinging in the air"-Ronnie James Dio (1942-2010) R.I.P. King Of Metal
    "Just take a look around you what do you see/Pain, suffering, and misery/It's not the way that the world was planned/It's a pity you don't understand" - Geezer Butler
    "If god is in heaven/How can this happen here" - Phil Lynott (1949-1986)

  39. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by -E5150 StarWanderer- View Post
    This! Joe, interested in forwarding this idea to the band?

    As for Spiral Architect being played live, I would probably jizz my pants if that scenario realized. I'm sure that if Ozzy'd still have the chops to sing stuff like Spiral, The Thrill Of It All, Megalomania and SBS they'd moret han happily add them to the setlist.

    Planet Caravan and Solitude would be realistic choises though, especially the latter. I reckon Ozzy would sound great doing it! He may have lost his high register, but his lower register has gained more timbre as the years have passed by.
    Yeah, I'm really surprised they don't consider doing "Planet Caravan" or "Solitude." These are perfect examples of how acoustic Sabbath was unique and innovative.

    And also I should point out that I'm thinking ahead here as regards a TV performance. Right now, they are promoting a new album. I get that. But towards the end of summer when the album has been out a while, can you imagine them doing an appearance on a late night show and pulling out "Planet Caravan" or "Solitude"?

    It would be an UNPREDICTABLE move.

  40. #40
    Spiralarchitectx1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    In the doghouse
    Posts
    3,988

    Default

    Not at all!!, they could've played it safe and appealed to all the "emo" teenagers or whatever the frig is "in fashion" in rock these days but judging on first listen reviews and god is dead they have stuck to their roots with us sabbath fans in mind.
    Vote leave if u want totally cool either way

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •