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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralarchitectx1 View Post
    Not at all!!, they could've played it safe and appealed to all the "emo" teenagers or whatever the frig is "in fashion" in rock these days but judging on first listen reviews and god is dead they have stuck to their roots with us sabbath fans in mind.
    I think you've misunderstood the premise: I'm talking about live performance.

    Also, I think it could be argued that "appealing to Sabbath fans" is, by definition, predictable. I don't disagree that they really seem to have stretched out on the new album, but will they pull out an acoustic tune live? Will they appear on a show playing a Sabbathy ballad? These are things that would unpredictable, IMO.

  2. #42
    Gijsco's Avatar
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    It would be cool too if they would do a cover. They've played Smoke on the Water a lot in the '80's, played Apache a few times. Maybe some old blues covers. Or a Boney M cover. But seriously, some Elmore James, Muddy Waters or Sonny Boy Williamson would be great! And unpredictable!

  3. #43
    LouiST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    I meant FX, ofcourse... Would've been great seing them coked up and naked, running around in a circle banging Tony's guitar with their crosses.
    The audience will be like: what the hell are they doing lol
    Do you hear the thunder raging in the sky?
    Premonition of a shattered world that’s gonna die.
    In the age of reason, how do we survive?
    The protocols of evil ravaging so many lives?

  4. #44
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouiST View Post
    The audience will be like: what the hell are they doing lol
    Exactly We need some brainless fun back in R&R.
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    Exactly We need some brainless fun back in R&R.
    Well to me that's not really that bad. How often did Sabbath get stoned on stage back in the days BTW?
    Do you hear the thunder raging in the sky?
    Premonition of a shattered world that’s gonna die.
    In the age of reason, how do we survive?
    The protocols of evil ravaging so many lives?

  6. #46
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouiST View Post
    Well to me that's not really that bad. How often did Sabbath get stoned on stage back in the days BTW?
    Every time, i'd imagine...
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

  7. #47

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    I'm inclined to doubt that Sabbath were "stoned on stage" very often in the 70s, let alone "every time."

    I seem to recall even Ozzy mentioning that "partying" was typically reserved until after gigs.

    Of course, we could speculate as to whether a little toke or two happened before gigs, sometimes ...

  8. #48
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
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    Geezer said himself that because they were "knackered", taking coke to get on stage became a regular thing. Being intoxicated onstage is pretty common...
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

  9. #49
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    Anyone notice before Snowblind was played in Sydney, Ozzy said this is a song about cocaine but we don't do that stuff anymore...

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Anyone notice before Snowblind was played in Sydney, Ozzy said this is a song about cocaine but we don't do that stuff anymore...
    Yeah, it's now Meth all the way!

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    Geezer said himself that because they were "knackered", taking coke to get on stage became a regular thing. Being intoxicated onstage is pretty common...
    My point isn't that it never happened.

    And I do think "coke" probably became a bit more common for them on stage by the late 70s.

    But I also think rock and roll tends to be a story, and the story isn't always accurate or clear, but it can be exaggerated.

    My gut says that Sabbath were more often straight on stage than not, but this is only my guess ...

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Sure, a new album is on the way. And sure, there will likely be some surprises contained within ...

    But do Sabbath continue to pander to the "metal" audience at the expense of exposing more of their musical character?

    Do they subscribe to some post-punk ethos where rock and roll has to fit into a certain sized bag and anything outside that bag is pretentious?
    At this stage in the game I really don't think they have much choice but to do exactly what they have done with 13. Evoke the sound of the glory days with no pandering to the present trends and more people will be happy. I've read many saying "hope the new Sab doesn't sound like an Ozzy solo album or nu-Metallica". Let's face it too. Ozzy's vocal skills have deteriorated to such a degree that anything adventurous wouldn't fly. It's not necessary. They invented this sound so they continue to show how it's done. If they stick to what they're still good at they can't and won't fail. Sabbath with an orchestra? Maybe when ol Ronnie Dio was still kicking that would work but not now.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    But please take note of my examples ...

    This thread is not meant to suggest that they suddenly play "Changes" and "She's Gone" as regulars in the setlist.

    I'm offering ideas for unique, "one off" ideas to mix things up. Maybe at most one leg of a tour gets something unique, as in the example for "Changes," but more so I am talking about solitary concepts. They come out and burn through "Spiral Architect" on Letterman or something. And they do something like play with an orchestra ONE. FREAKING. TIME.

    Live, Sabbath have let themselves become a bit one dimensional. The idea that this is all fans will accept is nonsense, IMO. This is all fans are offered. And I have to imagine it also impacts the type of fans they are attracting to the live show in the first place.
    How about a one off, never released Earth/Sabbath demo done live, like The Rebel?
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Sure, a new album is on the way. And sure, there will likely be some surprises contained within ...

    But do Sabbath continue to pander to the "metal" audience at the expense of exposing more of their musical character?

    Do they subscribe to some post-punk ethos where rock and roll has to fit into a certain sized bag and anything outside that bag is pretentious?

    I mean, think about it, Sabbath just played "down under," where "Changes" was a smash hit back in the day. Why not get Tony to pull up at a piano, get Geezer a mellotron and let Ozzy take a shot at "Changes"? Who cares if he can't sing it the way he could in '72? The crowd will help him on those soaring chorus bits ...

    And it would be so out of left field!

    Why not appear on Letterman or Saturday Night Live, but grab a big string section with a conductor and crank out "Spiral Architect"? I think the average non-believer would shit a brick if the band he knew for "Paranoid" suddenly pulled that out!

    Why not get Rick Wakeman to join them on stage at one show in London and do "Sabbra Cadabra"?

    Why not suddenly, out of the freaking blue, perform "She's Gone" on Jay Leno with Tony on acoustic and a string section?

    The "metal" audience is already sold and this may be about it for these guys. Why not expand the circle even further by stepping out of the "box" they so often stepped out of on record?
    Hi 'Jeff', your question is actually tough for me to answer! Artistically speaking, not really. In fact, I think they have more diversity in their music than what they're given credit for. The original lineup did experiment with their "sound", it's just that sometimes it didn't work very well ( i.e. 'Technical Ecstasy' and 'Never Say Die'). On the other hand, I think that songs like 'Planet Caravan' and 'Changes' are PERFECT "experimentations" that Sabbath did and I would love to hear those live! I think it just comes down to great SONGS at the end of the day, regardless of the "predictable" nature of them.

    However, I will say that Black Sabbath set lists are VERY predictable. The aforementioned 'Planet Caravan' and 'Changes', along with 'Wicked World', and 'Lord Of This World' would be great additions to the set. Certainly 'Symptom Of The Universe' would bring down the house as well, although I imagine that would most likely be an instrumental version at this point. Not a criticism, just an observation.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by 62_SG View Post
    It's because with the exception of Spiral Architect those more expansive songs are generally looked back on as self-indulgent and sort of ridiculous. I love them but the non-hardcore fan sees them as bad memories, the dark spots on otherwise great albums that are better left forgotten. If they broke out Changes or Shes Gone at a concert that would be time for most of the crowd to go get a drink, or maybe wonder if something was slipped in their drink.

    Predictability isn't a bad thing. People love Sabbath for their heavy stuff.......
    Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Black Sabbath were always more than a HM band. The perspective you have is the classic HM perspective of someone who listens to Sabbath, but doesn't actually understand it at all.

    This kind of logic led to the rubbish that Tony Iommi has been peddling over the last 30 years. He succumbed to thinking that they were a HM band.

    They might have been a direct influence on lots of dreadful HM bands, but they completely transcend that on their best LPs.

    It is also why the new LP will be merely 'OK' instead of great. They are past taking risks. They just conform to other people's expectations.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    However, I will say that Black Sabbath set lists are VERY predictable. The aforementioned 'Planet Caravan' and 'Changes', along with 'Wicked World', and 'Lord Of This World' would be great additions to the set. Certainly 'Symptom Of The Universe' would bring down the house as well, although I imagine that would most likely be an instrumental version at this point. Not a criticism, just an observation.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKTrSqoSHNo

  17. #57

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    One thing that would be really cool is a very quick tribute to Dio era. I saw a BS cover band do this live. The band could play just a few bars of "Heaven and Hell" (10-15 seconds) and then it could just segue into another song, "Iron Man" or "War Pigs" or whatever. You could even have Ozzy jokingly say something like "Hey, cut that shit out!" Everyone would get a kick out of it I'm sure and it would just be a very quick tribute to fans of that era and to Dio himself. Here's the article about the BS tribute if anyone wants to check it out. http://www.examiner.com/article/bast...tribute-part-1. Actually I could picture Ozzy singing "H&H". But the song would need to be re-worked in a different style. Of course, no need for that to happen and I'm sure Ozzy wouldn't want to.

    As far as setlists the current ones are pretty good. There's only so much that can be changed when there's so many classics that need to be played. Going to see Sabbath and not hearing "War Pigs" would be like going to a Scorpions concert and not hearing "Rock You Like A Hurricane". This is a final farewell tour, many people haven't seen the band in years (maybe never), and casual listeners are only familiar with the hits. Plus, the band and Ozzy have played these songs thousands of times, including recently. In some ways I'd rather them play something they know they can pull off as opposed to them dusting off "Megalomania" and butchering it.

    I do really like the idea of them playing new songs. I hope they keep in the setlist either "GID" or "EOTB", but maybe even one of the others. It's what makes this reunion unique in the end. Lots of classic bands tour, but hardly any of them come out with new material. And if they do, it's not any good, which we know this new BS album most certainly will be.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Underdog View Post
    They should pull out the ol` Moog and do Who Are You with Ozzy playing it. Or dance around naked trying to re-create Fluff.
    I thought that was played mainly on Ozzy's ARP 2600

    http://www.vintagesynth.com/arp/arp_2600_lg.jpg

    But it might just have been written on that and recorded using a Moog... I can't tell the difference honestly. (and yes, this was the most interesting part of the thread)

    EDIT: made the picture a link instead not to take up the whole page... :D
    "I am the crazy man who lives inside your head, but I think I'm breaking through the wall... You are the innocent convicted of the crime, no one was ever there to catch you when you fall" (1992)
    -Ronnie James Dio, Rest in Peace

    "In the summer days we flew to the sun, on melting wings, but the seasons changed to fast, leave us all behind... Blind..." (1969)
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  19. #59
    Spiralarchitectx1's Avatar
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    Link doesn't ' work pal..
    Vote leave if u want totally cool either way

  20. #60

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    I fundamentally disagree with the notion that a group should cater to "casual listeners."

    I'm not saying that those people should be ignored, but I'm surprised how many people use that as a basis for accepting the setlists.

    I suspect a far bigger reason why the setlists are somewhat predictable yet again is more to do with Ozzy's range than anything. He can't sing the higher stuff any longer and they have to deal with that in putting a setlist together.

    That's why this thread is about creative ways that they might get around it. Perhaps a sinlge performance of a lesser known song? Or going acoustic on a special occasion and breaking out "Planet Caravan" or "Solitude"?

  21. #61
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josef_K View Post
    I thought that was played mainly on Ozzy's ARP 2600
    All i know is i think i've read it was atleast written on a Moog, but i'm certainly not going to argue with you about synths...
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
    Til įrs ok frišar ok forn sišr

  22. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I suspect a far bigger reason why the setlists are somewhat predictable yet again is more to do with Ozzy's range than anything. He can't sing the higher stuff any longer and they have to deal with that in putting a setlist together.
    While Ozzy cannot sing all songs and isn't as flexible as he was back in the day, it should be kept in mind that when touring with Dio, the setlist wasn't exactly full of surprises either. I think it has more to do with the entire band being unwilling to leave their comfort zone. Still, introducing all these new songs in the new tour is rather unpredictable.

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  23. #63
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    Sabbath's no more "predictable" than any other artists for the most part... bands sometimes do a one-off full album, but seriously, any band's setlist consists of 90% their "standard classics..". Sabbath does a couple new songs, what else do people want? Are you touring with them and are sick of the setlist every night? Most people at a concert have maybe seen the band a couple 3 times, some their first time ever... they don't want to here War Pigs dropped in favor of St. Vitas Dance..!

  24. #64
    Billy Underdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    they don't want to here War Pigs dropped in favor of St. Vitas Dance..!
    I would love them to do both. As i've said before: WP is THE best Sab-tune. And rarities like St. Vitus are highly welcome. I'd rather see them cut out Paranoid, but i know that'll never happen...
    95% of everything i say is pure bullshit just for the fun of it. The other 95% is damn serious!
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  25. #65
    OzzyIsDio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    War Pigs dropped in favor of St. Vitas Dance..!
    St. Vitus, love that song one of my favorite off the VOL. 4 album.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  26. #66
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    Hmm, the 2 songs off Vol.4 that I consider the weekest are Tomorrows Dream and St. Vitas... Changes drags on a little too long too.. the rest of the album is a power house.. funny how eveyone has their own likes and dislikes and they vary so much...

  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Hmm, the 2 songs off Vol.4 that I consider the weekest are Tomorrows Dream and St. Vitas... Changes drags on a little too long too.. the rest of the album is a power house.. funny how eveyone has their own likes and dislikes and they vary so much...
    I'm not too fond of Changes, love the rest of the album.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Hmm, the 2 songs off Vol.4 that I consider the weekest are Tomorrows Dream and St. Vitas... Changes drags on a little too long too.. the rest of the album is a power house.. funny how eveyone has their own likes and dislikes and they vary so much...
    Tomorrow's Dream?

    Wow. To me ... this is such a masterpiece. It's no wonder they used it as a show opener on the '73 and early '74 tours. The guitar tones on it are absolutely sick, the vocal melody delicious and the Ward/Butler rhythms are to die for!

    One thing I love on TD is the double bass drum work of Ward. So brilliantly crafted and restrained. A completely different use of double bass than what was popularized years later.

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