Ozzy-Era Female Audience

[Jeff]

One of the clichés I've seen develop about Black Sabbath through the years is that they are a "guy's band."

Don't get me wrong, I think this is true to a fair extent.

But find a picture from the front rows one of their US shows in the 70s and the females are not hard to find. Not to mention the numerous bootlegs out there with girls screaming their lungs out.

I wonder if this perception sort of developed during the Dio-era?

When the promo video came out for EotB I was surprised how many comments seemed to indicate that the audience should be a bunch of sweaty males. Have people who say stuff like this ever been to a Sabbath show with Ozzy?

[Jeff]

That video showed a trendwhore crowd, even if they were females they looked like a Rihanna crowd than a Sabbath one.

Apart from women you also saw the occasional black guy in the 70s audience, atleast on film. That era just seemed like one that was more free flowing and less divisive. Now everyone's decked out in black t-shirts and throwing the horns like in a religion.

Even if the video was exaggerated, the idea that a more realistic audience would be made up solely of metal dudes is at least as inaccurate.

[Jeff]

This is part of the front row in Santa Monica, Sept. 4, 1975. Five songs from this show were broadcast on "Don Kirshner's Rock Concert." Notice not only females but the way people are dressed. Wouldn't standard rock history writers have you believe that everybody should be in leather?

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...psea96835c.jpg

[EDTRADER]

Well thats not guys having their tits out during dirty women.

[Jeff]

Well thats not guys having their tits out during dirty women.

Another great example.

I guess the question is: Where exactly does this impression originate?

Jimmy Norton once talked on the Opie and Anthony show about how Sabbath never sold sex. They never sold sex appeal. Very true and a difference between them and many of their peers. But then the three of them kind of laughed and said they really couldn't have anyway. It's things you hear like this, and not to mention Ozzy discussing Sabbath as a guy's band in his book. I think what has happened is that people assume because Sabbath never really marketed sex appeal, that their fan base was almost entirely male. But history simply doesn't bear this out in pictures and recorded evidence. I'm not comparing them to an Elton John concert, but I think the original band always had an appeal to females. It seems to me that this is simply something which has become exaggerated in recent years. Probably because of the rise of "heavy metal" as a genre and Sabbath sitting atop its throne. But Sabbath never really fit neatly into a bag in their heyday. And I suspect their audience was like this to an extent. Perhaps this vaired in different parts of the world, but US shows from the 70s seemed to have plenty of females. And some of them very vocal.

[Jeff]

That's just what I was talking about. When I went to a Sabbath gig last year I went looking like a Floyd fan, even if I normally have a black leather jacket in winter. I was depressed seeing a hall full of trucker types looking like mini-Zakk Wyldes in black t-shirts.

Definitely not the case when I saw them last year. 20,000 people of all kinds. Sure, people like you describe, but nowhere near a dominant portion that I noticed.

[Billy Underdog]

Well thats not guys having their tits out during dirty women.

Hear hear!

@ Ron Paul: Not everyone is as negative as you, when i was at Sabbath this fall, even more; both Ozzy solo-gigs i've been to, and actually almost every metal-show i've been to (big almost there), there've been surprisingly lot's of what i'd call "straight-dressed" people, and very little "mini-Zakk Wyldes in black t-shirts". I think AlexBarghest would agree with me when i say; i didn't think he looked like a "typical" Sabbath-, or for that matter, Metal-fan. And i'm pretty sure he thought the same about me...

@ Jeff: I don't know, man... As Stinky points out with mentioning what he calls the "Rihanna"-crowd, there will always be those mainstream kids on a show. Be it Sabbath, or Ozzy, but ofcourse spec. Sab With Ozzy... after that whole Osbournes-thing.
Hell, i've seen the same thing at Metallica, even Mayhem when they had a little local media-hype in front of the Ordo Ad Chao-album.

The lack of responce on the "leather-jacket"-thread on this very forum should say it all, really... Thinking about it; over the last whatever (5?) years i've seen more rappers in leather-jackets than metal-heads. Though i luckily still know of some few and proud who take it all out, 80's n' patches n' everything

[Now in Darkness]

I agree with your OP Jeff. Any Sabbath show or Ozzy show I've been to was crawling with chicks, old farts like me, and older farts and couples in the 60+ category. I think it comes from the folklore of people who want to think that they are part of some exclusive club, and don't want to admit that they are fans of one of the biggest bands in the world. It plays to the sense of self when people say that Sabbath is a guys band, and somehow an obscure entity that they latched on to. My wife is one of those chicks that is at those shows, and she is a large part of the reason as to why we are flying 1/4 of the way across our country to see 2 shows in April. One other thing that might factor into the folklore is that Sabbath were pretty ugly dudes, except Ozzy, and did not have the centerfold look that some bands had. Tony's bowl cut bangs were just too far ahead of their time . Sabbath are a band for all music fans. I mean, my Mom even appreciates them, although that took time.

[Billy Underdog]

Yes, but I believe I was talking about my experience and not what went down in Norway?

Sorry, i thought you were talking about the topic of this thread... I didn't read the cue that said "my experience" and "in Norway" are two different things... My fault... Again, i guess...

[Spiralarchitectx1]

Gotta be honest when I go to see a band I'm there for the band only, I don't really take that much notice on chicks or what people are wearing etc(that's what you do in nightclubs not gigs)
If it's pussy your after I think Mötley Crüe are doing a farewell tour soon

[Billy Underdog]

If it's pussy your after I think Mötley Crüe are doing a farewell tour soon

Best thing said tonight!!!

[Billy Underdog]

Yes, it would be, since my experiences aren't in Norway. Try using a little less drama in your posts.

Still, you don't point out where your experience differ from my experience regarding the topic... So i wouldn't throw that use of the word Drama around like that if i were you, D-Queen.

[Spiralarchitectx1]

Yo Viking and Terence!
Stop it lol,


Check this song out, if you don't like it I'll give you both 5 dollars(or euros)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PakoE1eBps

[Billy Underdog]

Yo Viking and Terence!
Stop it lol,


Check this song out, if you don't like it I'll give you both 5 dollars(or euros)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PakoE1eBps

I know enough depressed wannabe Norskies, not to mention Swedes, to bother listening to their wannabe-something music. Give me 5 bucks (Euro's ofcourse) NOW!!

No, seriously; i think this is kinda laughable, though if someone'd (you maybe?) dragged me along to a live show of theirs i probably would've loved the hell out of it...

[Spiralarchitectx1]

I know enough depressed wannabe Norskies, not to mention Swedes, to bother listening to their wannabe-something music. Give me 5 bucks (Euro's ofcourse) NOW!!

No, seriously; i think this is kinda laughable, though if someone'd (you maybe?) dragged me along to a live show of theirs i probably would've loved the hell out of it...

Feel a bit sad now
I really like this band pal, see many parallels between these and sabbath too.

[Billy Underdog]

Feel a bit sad now
I really like this band pal, see many parallels between these and sabbath too.

And there's alot of you guys here who feel the same about this band, i've seen.
Don't feel sad because i don't agree with you, more of a reason to be proud of your own taste! The only reason metal have survived through the horrible years (be it the 80's, 90's 00's or however you want to see it)...

But you do owe me 5 bucks though :D

[Jeff]

Gotta be honest when I go to see a band I'm there for the band only, I don't really take that much notice on chicks or what people are wearing etc(that's what you do in nightclubs not gigs)
If it's pussy your after I think Mötley Crüe are doing a farewell tour soon

Thanks for the personal insights but I think you're missing the actual topics at hand:

It's about how or when this perception of Sabbath as "guy's band" came to be. And does it really have much credibility?

It's just a topic for discussion. Not a suggested approach to dating.

[Spiralarchitectx1]

Thanks for the personal insights but I think you're missing the actual topics at hand:

It's about how or when this perception of Sabbath as "guy's band" came to be. And does it really have much credibility?

It's just a topic for discussion. Not a suggested approach to dating.

Sabbath definantly still a guys band, led zep is a chick band.
We had a couple of girl posters on here till nid scared them off
Chick rock bands :
Foreigner, whitesnake, led zep, van halen,

Manly men rock bands:
Sabbath, Motörhead

[Billy Underdog]

It's about how or when this perception of Sabbath as "guy's band" came to be. And does it really have much credibility?

I think i tried to answer that with my first post, but let me try again with more clear words; i don't know when or why (well, i've got some ideas, but they're not that interesting, you've all thought the same) but it certainly doesn't have any credibility. It's just not true.
Though there are remarkably few female members on this forum. But i guess that's more to do with guys' ability to nerd over something enough to start and/or keep discussing it online, rather than chicks' musical taste

[Jeff]

Sabbath definantly still a guys band, led zep is a chick band.
We had a couple of girl posters on here till nid scared them off
Chick rock bands :
Foreigner, whitesnake, led zep, van halen,

Manly men rock bands:
Sabbath, Motörhead

I'm quite certain nobody with even half an ounce of sense would ever suggest that Sabbath has been a "Chick Band" at any point in their career.

But your examples of male rock bands illustrate the point all too well. I am quite certain the audience at a 70s Sabbath concert would differ greatly from the audience at a 70s Motorhead concert, yet you define both in the same category.

Don't think it works.

70s Sabbath was a band that appealed to a fairly wide spectrum of people. They also went through some arguably different phases in terms of their appeal.

And while I think he always downplayed it and certainly was never a poser, let's face it; by almost any "looks" measurement, Ozzy was a good looking dude. In the 70s, Sabbath attracted a fair share of females to their shows. My guess is that with the rise of the "heavy metal" genre, Sabbath with Dio was more a guy's band, and with Iron Maiden and later Metallica and so forth, the genre became known as one dominated by males.

I can even recall reading articles in Rolling Stone from the 70s, and at Sabbath concerts they would interview chicks. Sometimes pre or post show with girls hanging around trying to get autographs and so forth. Girls screaming with excitement if they got near Ozzy or managed to touch him. It's really odd how the mainstream press is so lazy. They don't do any research when writing about the band. They were a fucking phenomenon around the time of Master Of Reality. That thing sold more on pre-orders in the US than 13 has to date. Times were different with physical media compared to now, but I'm just sayin' ... they were one of the biggest things going in many ways. They settled in with a dedicated following and always had lots of run in all of the 70s rags like Circus and Hit Parader. I would suspect that their male audience were probably the most committed and fanatical, and they were NEVER a "chick band," but let's not forget other things: After they were on Top Of The Pops in 1970 and with "Paranoid" a chart topping single, they had screaming girls going berserk at their shows. They actually came out in the UK press at the time and said they didn't want those types of fans.

It's been a long ride for these guys. Never pigeonhole them as it'll bite you in the ass.

[Jeff]

I think i tried to answer that with my first post, but let me try again with more clear words; i don't know when or why (well, i've got some ideas, but they're not that interesting, you've all thought the same) but it certainly doesn't have any credibility. It's just not true.
Though there are remarkably few female members on this forum. But i guess that's more to do with guys' ability to nerd over something enough to start and/or keep discussing it online, rather than chicks' musical taste

I agree. It's just patently false. Even if they were 80/20 or maybe 90/10, they were never like Motorhead or even King Crimson.

[Spiralarchitectx1]

I'm quite certain nobody with even half an ounce of sense would ever suggest that Sabbath has been a "Chick Band" at any point in their career.

But your examples of male rock bands illustrate the point all too well. I am quite certain the audience at a 70s Sabbath concert would differ greatly from the audience at a 70s Motorhead concert, yet you define both in the same category.

Don't think it works.

70s Sabbath was a band that appealed to a fairly wide spectrum of people.

And while I think he always downplayed it and certainly was never a poser, let's face it; by almost any "looks" measurement, Ozzy was a good looking dude. In the 70s, Sabbath attracted a fair share of females to their shows. My guess is that with the rise of the "heavy metal" genre, Sabbath with Dio was more a guy's band, and with Iron Maiden and later Metallica and so forth, the genre became known as one dominated by males.

I can even recall reading articles in Rolling Stone from the 70s, and at Sabbath concerts they would interview chicks. Sometimes pre or post show with girls hanging around trying to get autographs and so forth. Girls screaming with excitement if they got near Ozzy or managed to touch him. It's really odd how the mainstream press is so lazy. They don't do any research when writing about the band. They were a fucking phenomenon around the time of Master Of Reality. That thing sold more on pre-orders in the US than 13 has to date. Times were different with physical media compared to now, but I'm just sayin' ... they were one of the biggest things going in many ways. They settled in with a dedicated following and always had lots of run in all of the 70s rags like Circus and Hit Parader. I would suspect that their male audience were probably the most committed and fanatical, and they were NEVER a "chick band," but let's not forget other things: After they were on Top Of The Pops in 1970 and with "Paranoid" a chart topping single, they had screaming girls going berserk at their shows. They actually came out in the UK press at the time and said they didn't want those types of fans.

It's been a long ride for these guys. Never pigeonhole them as it'll bite you in the ass.

I think ozzy is cute too jeff but musically they are a dudes band.

[Jeff]

I think ozzy is cute too jeff but musically they are a dudes band.

Music is never just about the music.

[Spiralarchitectx1]

Music is never just about the music.

True, sometimes you gotta look at the package too.

[Jeff]

My point is just that a lot of people who write about Sabbath don't really know about Sabbath.

Plenty of pretty good shots of the audience at Santa Monica, 1975. See a predominantly "leather and chains" crowd?

[Now in Darkness]

Here's the audience from the last Sabbath show I saw. The place was crawling with chicks, kids, and old people. This crowd was no different than with any other rock band I have seen, except for Journey, and that was just disgusting. Taken from my seat.

[Spiralarchitectx1]

Well I could never answer that what sabbath you first bought thread cause I was brought up surrounded by sabbath so never had to buy any albums really.
It's in my blood, and it's gonna get passed down to my kid too!

[Wheels Of Confusion]

That's raising them the right way man

[Spiralarchitectx1]

That's raising them the right way man

Ha ha , possibly.

[Jeff]

Jeff, that's a whole different era and the same applied for everyone. People of different genres mixed together a lot more. I don't know if you can judge Sabbath today by the times then.

Eh, I'm not so sure it's as simple as it being a different era. But I do agree that is a part of it. Probably a big part of it.

So ... let's use that as a basis for discussion.

Sabbath came to prominence in the 1970s.

Hence, the idea that they were a band who was as Henry Rollins describes in the Making Of Paranoid DVD really doesn't tell the whole story. I think Rollins describes how it was when I was growing up, but that was the 1980s.

Put it this way: If the Sabbath movie is ever made and they get it historically accurate, there will be females in the audience during the concert scenes. Especially at any shows that depict scenes of concerts in the US. And I bet you anything the idiots will come out and say that wasn't really like a Sabbath show and doesn't depict how it was. But those people are talking out of their asses.

[Spiralarchitectx1]

Conclusion.... Sabbath is liked by some females(mainly wife's and daughters) cool! Will this increase our changes of getting laid?
HELL NO!!!

[princehollow]

Hey Jeff. I also agree that its a bit unfair that Sabbath are being labelled a 'guys band'. I think the problem with Sabbath is just that they were never as "cool" (read: pretentious) and as big headed as their contemporaries and that makes them more likeable to males. No matter how good of a performer Mick Jagger or Jimmy Page is I somehow don't think I would get along with them as real people. I'm not sexually attracted so what do I care? The guys in Sabbath on the other hand look like they could be my boys. Or AC/DC or Metallica. And once a fanboy always a fan boy. Females often seem to move on with their lives but guys become loyal for life. (I know there are females who are fans for life too, but realistically not as often... not even close. examples: Star Wars, football, etc) So the male fans that accumulate over the years often stay for life and keep growing but something tells me that its not quite the same with females. So it always looks like a majority of the fans are male.

What bothers me about the press in the 70s is that they portrayed the Sabbath fan as young male stupid and aggressive. The press may have changed their opinion a bit but I'm sure there are lots of Sabbath fans who are hesitant to openly admit it in certain social circles. They are not fashionable. I blame this on those critics and maybe to a greater degree the greasy metal heads of the 80s, the "you better show me respect" frustrated Fred Durst's of the 90s, and whatever shithead followed in the next decade. So was it the fault of the 80s in all its macho glory? Maybe. In every pre-late 70s crowd photo I have ever seen of Sabbath there were always tons of girls.

When I saw Sabbath in the summer, my only complaint is that there weren't enough young long hairs there. Every other demographic was there except the rockers! But I saw plenty of women young and old. More than Metallica a year before thats for certain. Metallica was all middle aged buzz cut black band tshirt guys. Not my crowd and I stood out like a sore thumb with long hair and tank top skinny jeans sneakers (pretty much like Hetfield in 1986).

But don't worry Sabbath got plenty of tail back in the day and still do. And as for all this talk that they were "ugly" except Ozzy?! Are you kidding? This forum might be a sausage fest but you guys aren't reading what young girls are saying about Tony and Bill in other parts of the internet. Don't kid yourselves. These guys are worshipped like sex gods. They've been featured in teen girl magazines since 1970.

[princehollow]

Hey NID I was up in the balcony

[Jeff]

Hey Jeff. I also agree that its a bit unfair that Sabbath are being labelled a 'guys band'. I think the problem with Sabbath is just that they were never as "cool" (read: pretentious) and as big headed as their contemporaries and that makes them more likeable to males. No matter how good of a performer Mick Jagger or Jimmy Page is I somehow don't think I would get along with them as real people. I'm not sexually attracted so what do I care? The guys in Sabbath on the other hand look like they could be my boys. Or AC/DC or Metallica. And once a fanboy always a fan boy. Females often seem to move on with their lives but guys become loyal for life. (I know there are females who are fans for life too, but realistically not as often... not even close. examples: Star Wars, football, etc) So the male fans that accumulate over the years often stay for life and keep growing but something tells me that its not quite the same with females. So it always looks like a majority of the fans are male.

What bothers me about the press in the 70s is that they portrayed the Sabbath fan as young male stupid and aggressive. The press may have changed their opinion a bit but I'm sure there are lots of Sabbath fans who are hesitant to openly admit it in certain social circles. They are not fashionable. I blame this on those critics and maybe to a greater degree the greasy metal heads of the 80s, the "you better show me respect" frustrated Fred Durst's of the 90s, and whatever shithead followed in the next decade. So was it the fault of the 80s in all its macho glory? Maybe. In every pre-late 70s crowd photo I have ever seen of Sabbath there were always tons of girls.

When I saw Sabbath in the summer, my only complaint is that there weren't enough young long hairs there. Every other demographic was there except the rockers! But I saw plenty of women young and old. More than Metallica a year before thats for certain. Metallica was all middle aged buzz cut black band tshirt guys. Not my crowd and I stood out like a sore thumb with long hair and tank top skinny jeans sneakers (pretty much like Hetfield in 1986).

But don't worry Sabbath got plenty of tail back in the day and still do. And as for all this talk that they were "ugly" except Ozzy?! Are you kidding? This forum might be a sausage fest but you guys aren't reading what young girls are saying about Tony and Bill in other parts of the internet. Don't kid yourselves. These guys are worshipped like sex gods. They've been featured in teen girl magazines since 1970.

Definitely some great points!

And as to your latter comment, I know what you mean. One of the Facebook groups I belong to is a Tony Iommi one, and there are girls on there who drool over him every time a new picture is posted.

But Sabbath were never "sex symbols" and I suppose that's part of why they had and still have so much credibility with their male audience. It's as you say; they seem like guys you could shoot the breeze with about music and not have them waving their hair back and looking out of the other eye for any girls who might know who they are.

[Jeff]

Yes, it's historically and currently inaccurate. There are girls and I've seen a black girl who's into Sabbath and I doubt they're the only ones. Even Whoopi Goldberg is a fan ffs. But to slightly amend what I said before, by 'truckers' I pretty much meant the black clad, square jawed type (but there are also some Zack Wylde types). It's a far cry from the colourful hippie pic you posted. Before you had melody, and a whole variety of emotions and it was reflected in the clothes, the attitude. Now it's people in uniform, holding a beer and trying to act tough.

It's a "tough guy" society to such a vast degree now. I'm sure this rears its head at concerts these days. I rarely attend concerts anymore, but I've no doubt this element exists all too often at "metal" shows.

[frankzappa]

It's a "tough guy" society to such a vast degree now. I'm sure this rears its head at concerts these days. I rarely attend concerts anymore, but I've no doubt this element exists all too often at "metal" shows.

Most of the young females in the audience I saw at Sheffield were with their fathers. Stood next to me near the front row was another father with his disabled daughter, mingled amongst these were several people who were obviously under the influence and classical 'freak-like' Sabbath fans, but no hind of violence and it was a very hippified atmosphere, as far as possible in 2013. Black Sabbath fans tend to differ so much I don't think there is a stereotypical BS audience. Perhaps this was not the case in the moshpit at the centre, as I saw many things being thrown about several people stretchered out etc

It would've helped if the security had allowed the audience to smoke weed, alcohol makes people violent and aggressive.

[princehollow]

Now it's people in uniform, holding a beer and trying to act tough.

Exactly. This is why I try to distance myself from the metal crowd. Its all about the uniform. All these dudes trying to look the part but in effect they all look like sheep to me. I pretty much have to keep my love of metal secret these days because there is such a stigma that comes with it. Some people dismiss you because of it and others think that you are somehow some kind of crazy rock and roller and expect you to live up to it. And when around metal heads I never let on and only mention all the other kinds of music that I like. Some of these guys think you're only allowed to like metal. Boring.

[OzzyIsDio]

Exactly. This is why I try to distance myself from the metal crowd. Its all about the uniform. All these dudes trying to look the part but in effect they all look like sheep to me. I pretty much have to keep my love of metal secret these days because there is such a stigma that comes with it. Some people dismiss you because of it and others think that you are somehow some kind of crazy rock and roller and expect you to live up to it. And when around metal heads I never let on and only mention all the other kinds of music that I like. Some of these guys think you're only allowed to like metal. Boring.

It's funny because my co-worker said to me, when I told him my band is Sabbath, he said you don't look like the Sabbath type, he said to me, "you are the most laid back person I've met"

Maybe he thinks I'm suppose to have hair down to my ass, and covered in tattoos, walking around yelling and screaming or something, people are funny though in their stereo typing of people.

[sterling#sound]

One of the clichés I've seen develop about Black Sabbath through the years is that they are a "guy's band." Don't get me wrong, I think this is true to a fair extent. But find a picture from the front rows one of their US shows in the 70s and the females are not hard to find. Not to mention the numerous bootlegs out there with girls screaming their lungs out. I wonder if this perception sort of developed during the Dio-era? When the promo video came out for EotB I was surprised how many comments seemed to indicate that the audience should be a bunch of sweaty males. Have people who say stuff like this ever been to a Sabbath show with Ozzy?

Never seen that pic before in the OP's post! Could you reveal the origin and when it was taken?

[Billy Underdog]

Exactly. This is why I try to distance myself from the metal crowd. Its all about the uniform. All these dudes trying to look the part but in effect they all look like sheep to me. I pretty much have to keep my love of metal secret these days because there is such a stigma that comes with it. Some people dismiss you because of it and others think that you are somehow some kind of crazy rock and roller and expect you to live up to it. And when around metal heads I never let on and only mention all the other kinds of music that I like. Some of these guys think you're only allowed to like metal. Boring.

Seems like this is much more of an American problem. It really isn't like that over here at all. Ofcourse, your typical Leather & Patches-guy with long, black hair will get his looks from the outermost conservatives, but overall it's a bigger stigma looking like a late 60's/early 70's rocker with beard and hippieish clothes than a metal-head. Belive me, i know.
The average metal-fan around here looks just like everybody else, with short hair and straight clothes.

Like most of you guys here, i'd imagine...

So going to a metal-show, esp. with some of the bigger names, those leather-&-patches guys are very much in minority. Partly because a big part of the crowd are straight-looking metal-fans, but also because a big part are the "in-kids".