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Thread: Ten Year War

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollerjoint View Post
    In this review it says:

    "The first decent remasters (through Essential / Castle, a company that later became the Sanctuary that was subsequently absorbed by Universal) are more than adequate for most purposes. But to compound the problem, all subsequent reissues remastered previous remasters.

    At the launch for this event the remastering for this release was explained, and if you’ve ever watched Fake Or Fortune on TV you’ll understand the work involved with tracing the masters back to the original recordings (or as close to as possible, and I’m not sure how helpful Sharon Osborne was). That was a job in itself, and listening to the music here, it was well worth it."

    I'm starting to loose track of how many remasters/transfers there are! Can someone clarify the different versions? Has there been a remaster since the 2007 Sanctuary releases? I remember seeing some releases in 2012 and the new Greatest Hits package since the recent sale of the label and I was thinking they have been using the same source, but now I'm wondering. Is this yet another version or are they talking about the work that was done 10 years ago?
    The best remastered versions I own by far are the digital MP3 downloads that were available on previous Original Black Sabbath years Vinyl Box collection that came out a few years ago , those were bloody amazing and I'm excited to know whether those available on the 'Ten Years' Box set will be as good or even better ?

    Here is the description on black sabbath The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978 :

    "To ensure pristine audio quality for this very special limited edition set, the original master tapes were remastered at a 24-bit/96kHz resolution, giving a listening experience to rival being present at the original Black Sabbath recording sessions."

    My 'Ten Years' box set have been dispatched and can't wait to get my hands on those new versions and compare for myself !

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    The best remastered versions I own by far are the digital MP3 downloads that were available on previous Original Black Sabbath years Vinyl Box collection that came out a few years ago , those were bloody amazing and I'm excited to know whether those available on the 'Ten Years' Box set will be as good or even better ?
    Ooops, I didn't know that. I always thought those downloads would be identical to the 2009 cds. Now I really hope that download code is still working.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by southernlord View Post
    Ooops, I didn't know that. I always thought those downloads would be identical to the 2009 cds. Now I really hope that download code is still working.
    You must be kidding ! Those remasters are ahead a shoulder above any other remasters I own (crisp sound with lots of dynamics and you can literally hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on earlier versions !) , fingers crossed those new ones on 'Ten Years War' box set would be even better !

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    You must be kidding ! Those remasters are ahead a shoulder above any other remasters I own (crisp sound with lots of dynamics and you can literally hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on earlier versions !) , fingers crossed those new ones on 'Ten Years War' box set would be even better !
    I was talking about the download, not the actual lps of course. I just assumed back then that they used the latest (2009) digital remaster for the mp3s.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by southernlord View Post
    I was talking about the download, not the actual lps of course. I just assumed back then that they used the latest (2009) digital remaster for the mp3s.
    Yes same here , I was only referring to the digital downloads.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    The best remastered versions I own by far are the digital MP3 downloads that were available on previous Original Black Sabbath years Vinyl Box collection that came out a few years ago , those were bloody amazing and I'm excited to know whether those available on the 'Ten Years' Box set will be as good or even better ?

    Here is the description on black sabbath The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978 :

    "To ensure pristine audio quality for this very special limited edition set, the original master tapes were remastered at a 24-bit/96kHz resolution, giving a listening experience to rival being present at the original Black Sabbath recording sessions."
    Thanks IRON-MaN, I think I have some catching up to do!

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    You must be kidding ! Those remasters are ahead a shoulder above any other remasters I own (crisp sound with lots of dynamics and you can literally hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on earlier versions !) , fingers crossed those new ones on 'Ten Years War' box set would be even better !
    The 2012 downloads are dynamic, for sure. But IMO they are WAY too crisp. Sure, when you add that much treble you hear more "detail," but it's at the expense of overall tonality and warmth.

    I do agree they are better than some other remasters, but I am hopeful that these will exceed what was offered there. That much top end boosting wears on your ears after extended listening, IMO. But al least they weren't compressed. From what I've read it sounds like these won't be either, which is great!

    Ymmv.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    The 2012 downloads are dynamic, for sure. But IMO they are WAY too crisp. Sure, when you add that much treble you hear more "detail," but it's at the expense of overall tonality and warmth.

    I do agree they are better than some other remasters, but I am hopeful that these will exceed what was offered there. That much top end boosting wears on your ears after extended listening, IMO. But al least they weren't compressed. From what I've read it sounds like these won't be either, which is great!

    Ymmv.
    Yeah I'm much looking forward for those new versions as well ! The 2012 indeed weren't compressed (and thus maintained those beautiful dynamics and details of the original records) , I'm quite interested to know what other people here think comparing other remastered versions as well ! One thing I've noticed for sure , hearing those classic Sabbath records on a high quality sound system could be a whole different experience all together ! One of my friends got a high end Klipsch home theater and I got to play some of those records ... I can't even describe the beauty and the warmth of the sound you get from such brillaint sound system ! I think many fans overlook Rodger Bain masterpiece of mixing and production on the first 3 (Black Sabbath & Paranoid in particular) , almost 50 years ago and they still totally blow anything on todays digital age.If anyone already got there hands on those new 'Ten Years' box set , please let us know your thoughts on those digital downloads !

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Yeah I'm much looking forward for those new versions as well ! The 2012 indeed weren't compressed (and thus maintained those beautiful dynamics and details of the original records) , I'm quite interested to know what other people here think comparing other remastered versions as well ! One thing I've noticed for sure , hearing those classic Sabbath records on a high quality sound system could be a whole different experience all together ! One of my friends got a high end Klipsch home theater and I got to play some of those records ... I can't even describe the beauty and the warmth of the sound you get from such brillaint sound system ! I think many fans overlook Rodger Bain masterpiece of mixing and production on the first 3 (Black Sabbath & Paranoid in particular) , almost 50 years ago and they still totally blow anything on todays digital age.If anyone already got there hands on those new 'Ten Years' box set , please let us know your thoughts on those digital downloads !
    I agree completely. Those first three are sonic masterpieces, IMO. The first two, especially. I love MoR, but the drums were maybe a bit too padded and boxy in comparison. Vol. 4 solved that but had issues of its own. I think Iommi produced that album at the end of the day and it's all over the map. "Snowblind" is one of the best produced Sabbath tracks, IMO. Whereas "Wheels On Confusion" (adore it as I do) I can see why some people find it a muddy mess.

    Sabotage is maybe the best production, for my money. I think Iommi and Mike Butcher worked so hard on that and it shows. Apparently WB even had a Quad mix at one time as there is an old catalog I've seen posted on the net that shows it on a list of upcoming releases (obviously that never transpired).

    Sabbath on analog vinyl is (IMO) untouchable. I hope Sabbath work out a deal one day with a company like MFSL or Analogue Productions to have limited edition pressings that are AAA and never touch a computer. Probably what they'd want to license out the catalog would blow the deal with those boutique companies. Although MFSL is now owned by Music Direct and have been doing other stuff that I would assume is super expensive to license actual analog tapes for these days like Miles Davis, Derek and The Dominoes, etc.
    Last edited by Jeff; 10-05-2017 at 04:54 PM.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I agree completely. Those first three are sonic masterpieces, IMO. The first two, especially. I love MoR, but the drums were maybe a bit too padded and boxy in comparison. Vol. 4 solved that but had issues of its own. I think Iommi produced that album at the end of the day and it's all over the map. "Snowblind" is one of the best produced Sabbath tracks, IMO. Whereas "Wheels On Confusion" (adore it as I do) I can see why some people find it a muddy mess.

    Sabotage is maybe the best production, for my money. I think Iommi and Mike Butcher worked so hard on that and it shows. Apparently WB even had a Quad mix at one time as there is an old catalog I've seen posted on the net that shows it on a list of upcoming releases (obviously that never transpired).

    Sabbath on analog vinyl is (IMO) untouchable. I hope Sabbath work out a deal one day with a company like MFSL or Analogue Productions to have limited edition pressings that are AAA and never touch a computer. Probably what they'd want to license out the catalog would blow the deal with those boutique companies. Although MFSL is now owned by Music Direct and have been doing other stuff that I would assume is super expensive to license actual analog tapes for these days like Miles Davis, Derek and The Dominoes, etc.
    I think although MOR is a bit raw it came a bit flat compared to the first 2 (partly due to down tuning a step and half down to C#) , but even Tony wasn't happy with the end product and thus deciding to take over production for the rest of the Ozzy era albums at the time ! Although Vol.4 is a brilliant album and had Sabbath experimenting and expanding their sound , I believe the mixing wasn't spot on as the first 3 (in particular Geezer's bass) , also Geezer had his Fender's neck destroyed on tour by Canadian customs on tour and had to go for a Dan Armstrong as a replacement (long story) , but anyway it just didn't sound that great on the record and even Geezer said its probably his worst tone on any Sabbath album ! SBS was definitely a step up but I guess Tony's masterpiece from a pure production prospect should definitely be 'Sabotage' , in my humble opinion it captures the rawness and power of the first 3 while consistently maintains the experimentation direction from Vol.4 and SBS , also Geezer's bass sounds better the mix although it wasn't until Martin Birch took on the helms on H&H and Mob Rules till Geezer's bass was perfectly nailed in the classic sound mix.

    I personally find it quite funny how Tony NEVER gets properly asked on any of his interviews on his venture as producer with Sabbath ! He isn't Jimmy Page when it comes to production but he arguably did a brilliant job on many Sabbath records that I would personally argue to be not only Sabbath's finest hours , but arguably the greatest rock records made by anyone EVER ! (Sabotage and SBS to be quite specific).

  11. #51

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    ^^^^ Hope your well my brother ,,,, on "Ultra" high end , state of the listening art , neutrally acoustic - room's and sound system's .... Black Sabbath (all 27) are absolutely astounding - YES even "Born Again" ,,,, Sabbath on Vinyl (from MANY of a source) , through 'true' tube high end , with sensitive "transducers" / speakers , has no peer , Sabbath has NEVER sounded better ..... very few exceptions exist -


    "Heaven n Hell" on SACD - only through state of the SACD art , otherwise will sound compressed , muddy and or bright - is absolutely breathtaking!

    "7th Star" on Reel-to-Reel - astounding!

    "Mob Rules" and "Iommi" on CD (from MANY of a source) / 176.4 and 352.8 - vinyl can't touch this , stop on a dime speed is beyond words.


    The world of Sabbath in State of the Art , is beyond comprehension awesome (and I highly doubt anyone in Sabbath has heard it properly themselves) .... great stuff!
    Last edited by BACK TO EDEN; 10-07-2017 at 07:35 PM. Reason: GOD BLESS

  12. #52
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    Got my "The Ten Year War" box at last... So, where's the whole new experience should come from? I've crosschecked it with the versions from "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978" from 2012, which came with download codes in MP3. Sorry to say, but this MQA hyped variant uses the identical source! In Adobe Audition files look like identical twins. I have quite good headphones and both variants DO sound the same in foobar2000, MQA or no MQA. Hands down. I must admit, I don't own any MQA converting device so far, just ordered DAC with one for my PC, but if the source looks identical, how could it sound any different. I've listened closely to MQA version of the 1st albumr, and there're enough places with obvious distortion/clipping. You might not notice it, when listening on acoustic systems, but in headphones these spots are pretty evident. And yes, they are absolutely identical to the imperfections of "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978" MP3s. To me it's just a rehash of "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978". I know this box was limited, just like "The Ten Year War" , but still. They should have been more open about remaster sources.

  13. #53
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    Seems like the biggest difference is the "Collection" only had Evil Woman/Wicked World on 7", whereas 10 yr War have two; Evil Woman/Black Sabbath and Paranoid/The Wizard? And a cross-shaped USB stick and some booklets, hardback book and a consert poster...
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBarghest View Post
    Got my "The Ten Year War" box at last... So, where's the whole new experience should come from? I've crosschecked it with the versions from "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978" from 2012, which came with download codes in MP3. Sorry to say, but this MQA hyped variant uses the identical source! In Adobe Audition files look like identical twins. I have quite good headphones and both variants DO sound the same in foobar2000, MQA or no MQA. Hands down. I must admit, I don't own any MQA converting device so far, just ordered DAC with one for my PC, but if the source looks identical, how could it sound any different. I've listened closely to MQA version of the 1st albumr, and there're enough places with obvious distortion/clipping. You might not notice it, when listening on acoustic systems, but in headphones these spots are pretty evident. And yes, they are absolutely identical to the imperfections of "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978" MP3s. To me it's just a rehash of "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978". I know this box was limited, just like "The Ten Year War" , but still. They should have been more open about remaster sources.
    I've wrote a review for the site here and it might up sometime soon , but till then and in brief , I totally disagree with everything you say here ! Those MQA versions of the first 8 albums are the absolute best I've ever heard ( and I do own The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978 box set as well) , they're remarkably better in every single aspect , much louder and yet more crisp , clean , rich with dynamics and you definitely hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on previous versions ! MQA is not a hype , its INCREDIBLE and its definitely the future , a few years from now I believe it will replacing all those standard MP3 formats in the market ! Size wise they're much bigger too ! They're triple the size to those of those digital downloads from 'Vinyl' box set for instance. For me , those MQA versions of the first 8 albums are worth the price a lone !
    Last edited by IRON-MaN; 11-19-2017 at 08:14 AM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    I've wrote a review for the site here and it might up sometime soon , but till then and in brief , I totally disagree with everything you say here ! Those MQA versions of the first 8 albums are the absolute best I've ever heard ( and I do own The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978 box set as well) , they're remarkably better in every single aspect , much louder and yet more crisp , clean , rich with dynamics and you definitely hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on previous versions ! MQA is not a hype , its INCREDIBLE and its definitely the future , a few years from now I believe it will replacing all those standard MP3 formats in the market ! Size wise they're much bigger too ! They're triple the size to those of those digital downloads from 'Vinyl' box set for instance. For me , those MQA versions of the first 8 albums are worth the price a lone !
    To each his own. Now check this and tell me they are from different sources. Oh, and where's 2012 and where's this crispy, louder, clean and rich 2017 version

    https://yadi.sk/i/WWp4ru2R3Pq4Cv

    Have you tested both with headphones?

    I kinda avoid lossy if it's possible. MQAs are bigger, just because they have higher resolution and still they are lossy. I have worked,as an amateur of course, with audioediting for quite some time now, and if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If there would be any minimal differences in a sound wave I wouldn't argue even.

    I even can guess why they have distortion sometimes, when wave looks normally and not clipped, while distortion implies some clipping.

    I would really appreciate if you could point out any REALLY audible difference in any song between "The Ten Year War" & "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978"
    Last edited by AlexBarghest; 11-19-2017 at 08:43 AM.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBarghest View Post
    To each his own. Now check this and tell me they are from different sources. Oh, and where's 2012 and where's this crispy, louder, clean and rich 2017 version

    https://yadi.sk/i/WWp4ru2R3Pq4Cv

    Have you tested both with headphones?

    I kinda avoid lossy if it's possible. MQAs are bigger, just because they have higher resolution and still they are lossy. I have worked,as an amateur of course, with audioediting for quite some time now, and if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If there would be any minimal differences in a sound wave I wouldn't argue even.

    I even can guess why they have distortion sometimes, when wave looks normally and not clipped, while distortion implies some clipping.

    I would really appreciate if you could point out any REALLY audible difference in any song between "The Ten Year War" & "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978"
    I've actually compared them to the 2012 first (cause those were the best versions I've heard till those 2017 editions, and yes , using headphones !) , they are significantly better , I'm not at expert in reading wave files , but even looking closely at those 2 versions you've sent you would notice some detailed differences between both versions , I assume the wave files looks very close cause apart from them being of the very same songs , the sources quality will be quite close for sure.

    I thought I might be exaggerating with how good those 2017 versions sound so I've uploaded a few songs for a friend and he was quite impressed with their significant quality as well (anyone who's interested drop me a line and I will link you a couple of songs I still have uploaded on drop box).

    Also here are some links for those who are interested to watch and read more about MQA technology :

    https://www.whathifi.com/advice/mqa-...can-you-get-it
    http://www.mqa.co.uk/
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/melissa.../#7f00e5bd14fe

    P.S - To be more accurate , the digital 2012 versions from the Vinyl Box set are incredible too , those new 2017 are yet louder and bit more detailed when compared to the 2012 versions , but compared to older remastered versions (like say the Black Box) , they're SIGNIFICANTLY way better on every single aspect.
    Last edited by IRON-MaN; 11-19-2017 at 09:09 AM.

  17. #57

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    Alex , I would also recommend you skip comparing the first 3 albums (those were sonic-ally incredible anyway) , the real difference could be heard more on later albums like Vol.4 , SBS and Sabotage in particular , a lot of layering and instruments and which REALLY sound quite crisp and with amazing clarity on those later 2017 versions , I've just gave them both a quick spin for a few songs , those 2017 are definitely louder and clearer but still very close to those 2012 versions.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    I've actually compared them to the 2012 first (cause those were the best versions I've heard till those 2017 editions, and yes , using headphones !) , they are significantly better , I'm not at expert in reading wave files , but even looking closely at those 2 versions you've sent you would notice some detailed differences between both versions , I assume the wave files looks very close cause apart from them being of the very same songs , the sources quality will be quite close for sure.
    Honestly, I don't see ANY differences, between them (left and right channels aside), let alone hearing anything. While I have at least 4 other versions of "Black Sabbath" album on CDs alone - and different remasters/digitized versions have only vague semblance with one another there. Only identical remasters/masters look this close - like for instance "Black Box" versions and "The Complete Albums 1970-1978" box, or deluxe editions from 2009 and Sanctuary LP+CD reissues and "Cross Box".

    If you have an example of audible difference, then I'd be only glad I'm wrong, but until then...

    I've read all about it before on MQA. Not convinced a single bit.

    Which equipment do you use for MQA?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Alex , I would also recommend you skip comparing the first 3 albums (those were sonic-ally incredible anyway) , the real difference could be heard more on later albums like Vol.4 , SBS and Sabotage in particular , a lot of layering and instruments and which REALLY sound quite crisp and with amazing clarity on those later 2017 versions , I've just gave them both a quick spin for a few songs , those 2017 are definitely louder and clearer but still very close to those 2012 versions.
    I will listen to everything anyway But thank you for your opinion.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBarghest View Post
    Got my "The Ten Year War" box at last... So, where's the whole new experience should come from? I've crosschecked it with the versions from "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978" from 2012, which came with download codes in MP3. Sorry to say, but this MQA hyped variant uses the identical source! In Adobe Audition files look like identical twins. I have quite good headphones and both variants DO sound the same in foobar2000, MQA or no MQA. Hands down. I must admit, I don't own any MQA converting device so far, just ordered DAC with one for my PC, but if the source looks identical, how could it sound any different. I've listened closely to MQA version of the 1st albumr, and there're enough places with obvious distortion/clipping. You might not notice it, when listening on acoustic systems, but in headphones these spots are pretty evident. And yes, they are absolutely identical to the imperfections of "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978" MP3s. To me it's just a rehash of "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978". I know this box was limited, just like "The Ten Year War" , but still. They should have been more open about remaster sources.
    Hi Alex hope you're well, did your Ten Year War Box, come with the number on a sheet that was glued to the back, where it detaches easily and falls off?


    Kind of cheaply done instead of being permanently affixed to the box?
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
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  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    Hi Alex hope you're well, did your Ten Year War Box, come with the number on a sheet that was glued to the back, where it detaches easily and falls off?


    Kind of cheaply done instead of being permanently affixed to the box?
    Hi, OID, thanks, I'm fine, hope you're well too. Yupp, it is like that. But I think this pattern is used for a lot of boxes these days, alas.

  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBarghest View Post
    Hi, OID, thanks, I'm fine, hope you're well too. Yupp, it is like that. But I think this pattern is used for a lot of boxes these days, alas.
    Thank you Alex, I'm doing well.

    With the kind of money we pay for these things, you'd think these companies would put more effort into making these box sets more durable and lasting by actually either having the numbers embossed or printed on the box set or at least a sticker that will not easily fall off.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  23. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    Thank you Alex, I'm doing well.

    With the kind of money we pay for these things, you'd think these companies would put more effort into making these box sets more durable and lasting by actually either having the numbers embossed or printed on the box set or at least a sticker that will not easily fall off.
    Yup , that's probably the most annoying thing on the whole set , there is an artwork underneath printed on the set though , but over all I really like the box set main artwork by Shepard Fairey , looks really neat and its embossed with very good quality !

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Yup , that's probably the most annoying thing on the whole set , there is an artwork underneath printed on the set though , but over all I really like the box set main artwork by Shepard Fairey , looks really neat and its embossed with very good quality !
    Hi IRON-MaN, hope your well, where would the artwork be, you say under the box on the outside printed on the numbered sheet or printed on the box itself?
    Last edited by OzzyIsDio; 11-19-2017 at 01:25 PM.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    much louder
    I highly recommend this brief video to understand why this is rarely viewed as anything but a negative by many. I believe this is part of why the first Black Sabbath album recorded nearly 50 years ago will be widely regarded as a stone classic another fifty years from now, whereas a great album like 13 will be an also-ran. It's beyond the music. It's about dynamics and punch. When everything is loud, drums take the biggest hit.

    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

  26. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I highly recommend this brief video to understand why this is rarely viewed as anything but a negative by many. I believe this is part of why the first Black Sabbath album recorded nearly 50 years ago will be widely regarded as a stone classic another fifty years from now, whereas a great album like 13 will be an also-ran. It's beyond the music. It's about dynamics and punch. When everything is loud, drums take the biggest hit.

    Jeff I'm fully aware of Loudness War from way back , apparently you haven't read much into my post , those MQA files are indeed louder and YET they maintain all the punch and dynamics you could possibly think of , I don't think people will get the whole picture till they have a listen themselves , those MQA files are very rich in dynamics you feel you're almost present in the studios while the album was being played and recorded , all the layers and instruments are sound clear and quite full and saturated , its incredible specially on albums like Vol.4 , SBS and Sabotage.

    With likes of the '13' and 'Death Magnetic', that's a different story and indeed the sound was bricked and dynamics crushed in order to make those records much louder (if you listen to the song versions of those Sabbath songs on those studio videos of '13' before the final mastering you will notice the huge difference , specially as you've mentioned , with Brad's drums in particular).
    Last edited by IRON-MaN; 11-19-2017 at 04:16 PM.

  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    Hi IRON-MaN, hope your well, where would the artwork be, you say under the box on the outside printed on the numbered sheet or printed on the box itself?
    Hi OzzyIsDio , all good here thank you , there is separate artwork inside the box set depending on the edition you buy , some comes without those artwork and to be honest , that's my least favorite from the box bundle , you won't miss much if you don't get the one with the exclusive artwork (they all come in the same price , but the editions with those artworks are more limited) , there is similar artwork embedded on the backside of the box covered with that printed sheet containing all the box detailed features and box number (its not printed on the box itself).

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Hi OzzyIsDio , all good here thank you , there is separate artwork inside the box set depending on the edition you buy , some comes without those artwork and to be honest , that's my least favorite from the box bundle , you won't miss much if you don't get the one with the exclusive artwork (they all come in the same price , but the editions with those artworks are more limited) , there is similar artwork embedded on the backside of the box covered with that printed sheet containing all the box detailed features and box number (its not printed on the box itself).
    Thank you IRON-MaN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollerjoint View Post
    In this review it says:

    "The first decent remasters (through Essential / Castle, a company that later became the Sanctuary that was subsequently absorbed by Universal) are more than adequate for most purposes. But to compound the problem, all subsequent reissues remastered previous remasters.

    At the launch for this event the remastering for this release was explained, and if you’ve ever watched Fake Or Fortune on TV you’ll understand the work involved with tracing the masters back to the original recordings (or as close to as possible, and I’m not sure how helpful Sharon Osborne was). That was a job in itself, and listening to the music here, it was well worth it."

    I'm starting to loose track of how many remasters/transfers there are! Can someone clarify the different versions? Has there been a remaster since the 2007 Sanctuary releases? I remember seeing some releases in 2012 and the new Greatest Hits package since the recent sale of the label and I was thinking they have been using the same source, but now I'm wondering. Is this yet another version or are they talking about the work that was done 10 years ago?
    There's always the important difference between European and American master tapes and, accordingly, remasters. The Sanctuary 2009 remasters were from European tapes, the Warner 2012 remasters (released on LP either in 2012 or 2014, not sure, also on hi-res official download sites in 2014, and finally on redbook in 2016) from US tapes. Thus, for example, the multi-channel DVD of the Paranoid Quad mix that was included in the Sanctuary Deluxe 2009 release of Paranoid was actually ripped from Quad-LP - apparently they didn't have the original master tapes. In contrast, the 2016 stereo mixdown of the Paranoid Quad mix that was included in the Warner 2016 4xCD Super Deluxe Edition of Paranoid sounds MUCH better and is definitely sourced from master tape - so the only master tapes of the Quad mix seem to be located in the US, not in Europe. Another and more well-known example: Originally the UK release of the first album included Evil Woman and no Wicked World, the US release had WW instead and no EW.

    Now, the "Ten Year War" box set is a European release, so it is no big surprise that Joe writes here <https://www.black-sabbath.com/2017/06/the-ten-year-war-box-set/> that "The mastering work here is the same done for the 2009 Universal Deluxe Edition series by Andy Pearce."

    There is one more series of releases, though not exactly remasters, that is definitely worth mentioning: the 2012 Japanese SHM-SACD releases of the first album, Paranoid, MOR, Vol4, SBS and H&H. Most of them are said to be sourced from flat transfers (!) of original UK master tapes, and those sound just great - better than any remasters (not because they are on SACD, but because they simply use the best mastering), namely the first album, MOR, Vol4 and SBS. If I remember correctly, the SACD releases of Paranoid and H&H somehow had a different story from the others and anyway sounded not as good. Obviously, many of us don't have the equipment to listen to SACDs, but if you can get good redbook CDR copies of the 4 good ones, I definitely recommend to do that.

    Of the 2016 Warner CDs, Paranoid Super Deluxe is a must have: best available mastering of Paranoid in digital on disc1, best available official digital copy of the Quad mix (regrettably downmixed to stereo, but still great-sounding) in disc2, and finally the fantastic SBD recordings of Montreux and Brussels 1970 on disc 3 and 4. The 2016 release of the first album has the best digital version of "Wicked World", for the other songs the SACD is better (though there is a tape problem with Evil Woman if I remember correctly, maybe you would have to take that song from the old 1986 Castle CD). For MOR, Vol4 and SBS, the SACDs are the best option. I haven't done any closer comparisons for Sabotage, TE and NSD, but many people with good ears claim that there is still no such thing as a satisfying digital release of these 3 albums.
    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 11-19-2017 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    You must be kidding ! Those remasters are ahead a shoulder above any other remasters I own (crisp sound with lots of dynamics and you can literally hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on earlier versions !) , fingers crossed those new ones on 'Ten Years War' box set would be even better !
    Have you had the chance to compare them to the European 2009 Sanctuary remasters? According to Joe S., they should have the same mastering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Jeff I'm fully aware of Loudness War from way back , apparently you haven't read much into my post , those MQA files are indeed louder and YET they maintain all the punch and dynamics you could possibly think of , I don't think people will get the whole picture till they have a listen themselves , those MQA files are very rich in dynamics you feel you're almost present in the studios while the album was being played and recorded , all the layers and instruments are sound clear and quite full and saturated , its incredible specially on albums like Vol.4 , SBS and Sabotage.

    With likes of the '13' and 'Death Magnetic', that's a different story and indeed the sound was bricked and dynamics crushed in order to make those records much louder (if you listen to the song versions of those Sabbath songs on those studio videos of '13' before the final mastering you will notice the huge difference , specially as you've mentioned , with Brad's drums in particular).
    I only meant to illustrate a point. Sorry if that made it appear that I missed the rest of what you had to say.

    I'm still waiting on my box to arrive but hopefully this week.

    In general terms, however, I typically find that some of the comments you're making would be indicative of compression. There are boatloads of remasters (and now remixes) sold every day with buyers commending them for increased "detail" or "clarity." IMO, this is part of how the industry has recycled successful catalogs as the lack of physical sales has transpired. They get people to buy and rebuy and re-rebuy ...

    If Alex has lined these up it should be provable whether they are just the 2012 HD Tracks downloads. Even if they were tweaked a little or MQA results in a slightly varied sound, it sounds like the source is the same. If you have found the newest versions beneficial to your ears, I'm sure nobody would dispute that because that's your own taste and right to enjoy music as you please, but I suspect that it is important information for some folks.

    Just to ramble a bit on this and not really in relation to anything anybody has said in this thread ...

    I personally find there is a lot more to a mix than clarity. I happened to listen to the 2011 Rhino Vinyl reissue of Vol. 4 last night. I'm sure many would find parts of it "muddy" or not "clear" enough, but I find it to be what is surely a truer representation of the master tapes. And that master mix at that time was surely obsessed over no matter how much drug use was rampant. Perhaps even more so because of that. Without the treble boosting so common on many CD reissues of Vol. 4, the album is almost infinitely "crankable." It never burns your ear drums. The sound just washes over you and is alive at every step. It begs to be turned up instead of down.

    Anyway ... I've heard the 2012 masters, and I was not happy with them for my taste. For all the added clarity, they lacked way too much warmth. This is what happens when treble is pushed too far, IMO.

    Andy Pearce is a sensational engineer whom I highly respect, but I suspect when it comes to a catalog like Sabbath's that he is "asked" to push things in a certain way. I know from reading some of this thoughts around 2009 that he had done a lot of comparisons and felt that many Sabbath releases on CD had too much top end boosting. He didn't want to do that and his work reflected that in most cases. His version of Vol. 4 was superb in 2009. Same with SBS and Sabotage. And probably MOST notably H&H, which finally returned to the amazing sound it had on vinyl and all the overly shrill top end was not added.

    But for the 2012 reissues, I think it's apparent that he was given different guidelines. Because I have listened to them and based upon what I know of his work and his engineering approach, they do not sound like the type of sound he would come up with. Obviously for you this worked out well, and that's all that matters for your ears. Besides, you can never please everyone. I guess I just think people should be aware that often they are sort of being misled in terms of what they are rebuying or in terms of technology advancing. Digital "tricks" are often used to get people to say; "Hey, I don't remember that bass note being quite that clear before ..."; and then the end user feels that purchasing a product for which he had already paid as justified. And thus the machine turns.

    But hey, I'm not knocking ANYBODY for buying Sabbath albums again and again! I just think sometimes these companies aren't transparent, and for some people this stuff is a difficult decision due to financial implications it may have for them. As such, it should be clearly stated that this new box is NOT cut directly from the master tapes. Instead, if you read the hype, it will dance around that reality. Probably because Sabbath will allow all analogue remastering five years from now. And of course I'll be there to rebuy.
    Last edited by Jeff; 11-19-2017 at 09:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Have you had the chance to compare them to the European 2009 Sanctuary remasters? According to Joe S., they should have the same mastering.
    They are definitely not that mastering from what I've seen. Most are saying they are sourced from the 2012 masterings, which were different. Some feel Paranoid in 2012 was vastly improved (the 2009 was proved to still be sourced from the old '96 mastering!), and also TE and NSD were felt to be better (Andy Pearce claims the 2009s of TE and NSD were NOT how they left his studio). From what I've seen, the rest were sometimes felt to be a step down from the 2009s, but this was not exclusive by any means. Many liked the 2012s.

    The 2012s are still in print and available everywhere. It sounds like this box will be sourced from same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    They are definitely not that mastering from what I've seen. Most are saying they are sourced from the 2012 masterings, which were different. Some feel Paranoid in 2012 was vastly improved (the 2009 was proved to still be sourced from the old '96 mastering!), and also TE and NSD were felt to be better (Andy Pearce claims the 2009s of TE and NSD were NOT how they left his studio). From what I've seen, the rest were sometimes felt to be a step down from the 2009s, but this was not exclusive by any means. Many liked the 2012s.

    The 2012s are still in print and available everywhere. It sounds like this box will be sourced from same.
    Thanks Jeff! Hm, now I am confused. Does this mean that my claims above regarding European vs. US tapes/releases are obsolete or misguided? Unlike what I believed, the 2012 vinyl reproductions seem to have been European indeed:
    https://www.discogs.com/Black-Sabbat...elease/4136914
    So it makes sense now that they were probably used for the Ten Year War. BUT how come they were also used for the Warner/Rhino 2016 CDF releases? That's exactly the kind of thing that I thought does usually NOT happen... Also, many people with trained ears agreed that the 2012 remasters used entirely different tape sources than the 2009 ones. How is that possible if both seem to be sourced from European tapes owned by Sanctuary/Universal? Damn, I thought I had finally understood that stuff more or less.

    As for the Paranoid 2012 remaster, I do agree there's too much treble on it, but I still feel that the tape source they used and its mastering is superior over other versions. But there is definitely room for further improvement if, at some point, they do a better remastering based on the same tape source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I only meant to illustrate a point. Sorry if that made it appear that I missed the rest of what you had to say.

    I'm still waiting on my box to arrive but hopefully this week.

    In general terms, however, I typically find that some of the comments you're making would be indicative of compression. There are boatloads of remasters (and now remixes) sold every day with buyers commending them for increased "detail" or "clarity." IMO, this is part of how the industry has recycled successful catalogs as the lack of physical sales has transpired. They get people to buy and rebuy and re-rebuy ...

    If Alex has lined these up it should be provable whether they are just the 2012 HD Tracks downloads. Even if they were tweaked a little or MQA results in a slightly varied sound, it sounds like the source is the same. If you have found the newest versions beneficial to your ears, I'm sure nobody would dispute that because that's your own taste and right to enjoy music as you please, but I suspect that it is important information for some folks.

    Just to ramble a bit on this and not really in relation to anything anybody has said in this thread ...

    I personally find there is a lot more to a mix than clarity. I happened to listen to the 2011 Rhino Vinyl reissue of Vol. 4 last night. I'm sure many would find parts of it "muddy" or not "clear" enough, but I find it to be what is surely a truer representation of the master tapes. And that master mix at that time was surely obsessed over no matter how much drug use was rampant. Perhaps even more so because of that. Without the treble boosting so common on many CD reissues of Vol. 4, the album is almost infinitely "crankable." It never burns your ear drums. The sound just washes over you and is alive at every step. It begs to be turned up instead of down.

    Anyway ... I've heard the 2012 masters, and I was not happy with them for my taste. For all the added clarity, they lacked way too much warmth. This is what happens when treble is pushed too far, IMO.

    Andy Pearce is a sensational engineer whom I highly respect, but I suspect when it comes to a catalog like Sabbath's that he is "asked" to push things in a certain way. I know from reading some of this thoughts around 2009 that he had done a lot of comparisons and felt that many Sabbath releases on CD had too much top end boosting. He didn't want to do that and his work reflected that in most cases. His version of Vol. 4 was superb in 2009. Same with SBS and Sabotage. And probably MOST notably H&H, which finally returned to the amazing sound it had on vinyl and all the overly shrill top end was not added.

    But for the 2012 reissues, I think it's apparent that he was given different guidelines. Because I have listened to them and based upon what I know of his work and his engineering approach, they do not sound like the type of sound he would come up with. Obviously for you this worked out well, and that's all that matters for your ears. Besides, you can never please everyone. I guess I just think people should be aware that often they are sort of being misled in terms of what they are rebuying or in terms of technology advancing. Digital "tricks" are often used to get people to say; "Hey, I don't remember that bass note being quite that clear before ..."; and then the end user feels that purchasing a product for which he had already paid as justified. And thus the machine turns.

    But hey, I'm not knocking ANYBODY for buying Sabbath albums again and again! I just think sometimes these companies aren't transparent, and for some people this stuff is a difficult decision due to financial implications it may have for them. As such, it should be clearly stated that this new box is NOT cut directly from the master tapes. Instead, if you read the hype, it will dance around that reality. Probably because Sabbath will allow all analogue remastering five years from now. And of course I'll be there to rebuy.
    They're obviously compressed but the whole trick is how they maintained all the punch and dynamics while doing so (and if I may say , even enhanced them) , I think many here seem to bring the point of whether they used the same sources on previous remasters or not ! Might be the case for sure , but how manage to transfer that using a certain technology makes a whole difference too ! Also those MQA are recommended to be played using certain software and hardware ( well at least to get the full experience ). Also remember that MQA stands for Master Quality Authenticated , meaning that they have been viewed and authenticated by the band themselves , from what I read , this project took 2 years in the making tracking , comparing and cleaning original tapes to one another in order to get the most perfect digital versions of those albums to date !

    Jeff , I hope you get your box set soon and ship in with some comments based on your listening experiences.
    Although this link is from Youtube , you can even notice the difference on this one ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z87o...ature=youtu.be

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Now, the "Ten Year War" box set is a European release, so it is no big surprise that Joe writes here <https://www.black-sabbath.com/2017/06/the-ten-year-war-box-set/> that "The mastering work here is the same done for the 2009 Universal Deluxe Edition series by Andy Pearce."
    I'm not sure about Universal, but they surely as hell look and sound different in comparison with Sanctuary deluxes.

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    IRON-MaN, so which equipment do you use for MQA playback?

    I've just got my Audioquest Dragonfly Red, I have to wait one more day for 3,5mm/6,35mm adapter to arrive, so I could use Sennheiser HD 800 headphones on those MQAs, but using PXC 550 - it still sounds the same to me as MP3 from "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978", although some ugly details popped up, which I hadn't paid attention to before. But these details present in both MP3 & MQA versions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBarghest View Post
    I'm not sure about Universal, but they surely as hell look and sound different in comparison with Sanctuary deluxes.
    Thanks for your comment, Alex. I just learned from two friends, one of them Roller himself, that the European vs. US tapes situation has changed since 2012 - I will get back to that point in a minute. Anyway, Joe S. apparently had false information when he wrote that the TYW box used the 2009 mastering. The 2012 remasters apparently used different tapes, at least for some albums, than the 2009 remasters. Your tests show that the 2012 remasters were used for the TYW box - thanks so much for testing, so now we know that for sure, and that finding fits perfectly to my friends' claim that the 2012 tapes and mastering are now used for all further releases worldwide. Apparently there have been some exceptions from this new rule though - like different tape sources used for Wicked World on the 2012 vinyl collection vs. the 2014 US hi-res downloads (the latter being much better, according to my friend).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Have you had the chance to compare them to the European 2009 Sanctuary remasters? According to Joe S., they should have the same mastering.
    Sorry Sabbabbath for missing your post earlier , I do own some of those 2009 remasters but unfortunately I didn't have the time to compare them yet , I also don't claim that I've heard or tell that those MQA are the best ever released (sound wise) , I doubt there are any better given its the latest advanced technology available , but as mentioned by Jeff , people have different preferences for sure , it just sound really remarkable and amazing from my own personal point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexBarghest View Post
    IRON-MaN, so which equipment do you use for MQA playback?

    I've just got my Audioquest Dragonfly Red, I have to wait one more day for 3,5mm/6,35mm adapter to arrive, so I could use Sennheiser HD 800 headphones on those MQAs, but using PXC 550 - it still sounds the same to me as MP3 from "The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978", although some ugly details popped up, which I hadn't paid attention to before. But these details present in both MP3 & MQA versions.
    Alex , nothing special in particular from my side yet ! I didn't even listen to them using preferred software like Tidal or so , will try them out at a friend's super amazing Klipshe home theater sometime soon ! I'm planning to get one myself as soon as I move to a new place next summer , with all that been said , they do sound better to my years just listening to my regular marshall headphones ...what do you exactly mean with ugly details ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Thanks for your comment, Alex. I just learned from two friends, one of them Roller himself, that the European vs. US tapes situation has changed since 2012 - I will get back to that point in a minute. Anyway, Joe S. apparently had false information when he wrote that the TYW box used the 2009 mastering. The 2012 remasters apparently used different tapes, at least for some albums, than the 2009 remasters. Your tests show that the 2012 remasters were used for the TYW box - thanks so much for testing, so now we know that for sure, and that finding fits perfectly to my friends' claim that the 2012 tapes and mastering are now used for all further releases worldwide. Apparently there have been some exceptions from this new rule though - like different tape sources used for Wicked World on the 2012 vinyl collection vs. the 2014 US hi-res downloads (the latter being much better, according to my friend).
    Roller is the man to go to for Sabbath, great guy he is Linda, you are lucky to have him as a friend, as we are lucky to have him here on the forums.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Alex , nothing special in particular from my side yet ! I didn't even listen to them using preferred software like Tidal or so , will try them out at a friend's super amazing Klipshe home theater sometime soon ! I'm planning to get one myself as soon as I move to a new place next summer , with all that been said , they do sound better to my years just listening to my regular marshall headphones ...what do you exactly mean with ugly details ?
    Thank you for your reply, IRON-MaN. I'm not sure Tidal can handle them, but I can be wrong. Tidal is a streaming app. MQAs are actually made for streaming mainly. I'm on "Paranoid" right now. It sounds much better than their 1st. Oh, I wish you to get the system the sooner, the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    ...what do you exactly mean with ugly details ?
    There's a lot distortion moments on the 1st album, some audible tape hiss, a few tape fall outs in left/right channels, tape defects. But maybe these artefacts were present in the original tape and always have been there, just I've never noticed them. I own an original Vertigo 1st LP from 1970 in NM, so I think I should crosscheck with this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Thanks for your comment, Alex.
    You're welcome, Linda. I still owe you a soundcheck from the last show My backlog of unreleased recordings to public is growing and growing, alas. Cannot force myself to deal with it.
    Last edited by AlexBarghest; 11-20-2017 at 04:55 PM.

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