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Thread: Ten Year War

  1. #121
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    Jeff, you’re one of my favorite posters on here, so happy to hear you got your replacement box, enjoy it brother you deserve it!

    If you don’t mind me asking what is the quote by Nick Mason?
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I have received my box!

    This set is absolutely gorgeous. The book is fantastic! So many memorable quotes from other musicians. Probably my very favorite was seeing Nick Mason give them so much credit, because of course Pink Floyd (well, mainly Roger Waters) were critical of Sabbath way back in the early days. To see that sort of come full circle was heartwarming, because it made me think about all these guys have been through.

    The reproduction of the '78 Tour Book is sensational! And the reprint of the '78 Promo Press Cartoon Magazine is a real gem! I used to own a copy of the real thing many years ago, but at some point I think I sold it or put it away somewhere, but now I have it again for sure. That magazine is a real treasure. Sabbath's PR Team were clearly trying to convert some non-believers in the late 70s. Who can blame the band for being on board after so much criticism by ignorant, musically inept writers. They wanted to survive and expand their reach. And whatever some people think of TE and NSD, they did survive and even thrived.

    To have Mint copies of all the UK covers is a real joy. I am not going to get into debates about sound on this set. I don't expect it to replace my favorite vinyl pressings, but I don't even care about that.

    My limited number is 2561. It was worth the wait. Even this set arrived with just a very minor nick, but no big deal. I am happy.

    I want to again thank Doc for being so generous. It was a great contest! Thanks to everybody. Truly!

    Sabbath Forever!

    -Jeff
    Thanks for telling Jeff, nice to hear you're enjoying the box, you definitely deserve it.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I have received my box!

    This set is absolutely gorgeous. The book is fantastic! So many memorable quotes from other musicians. Probably my very favorite was seeing Nick Mason give them so much credit, because of course Pink Floyd (well, mainly Roger Waters) were critical of Sabbath way back in the early days. To see that sort of come full circle was heartwarming, because it made me think about all these guys have been through.

    The reproduction of the '78 Tour Book is sensational! And the reprint of the '78 Promo Press Cartoon Magazine is a real gem! I used to own a copy of the real thing many years ago, but at some point I think I sold it or put it away somewhere, but now I have it again for sure. That magazine is a real treasure. Sabbath's PR Team were clearly trying to convert some non-believers in the late 70s. Who can blame the band for being on board after so much criticism by ignorant, musically inept writers. They wanted to survive and expand their reach. And whatever some people think of TE and NSD, they did survive and even thrived.

    To have Mint copies of all the UK covers is a real joy. I am not going to get into debates about sound on this set. I don't expect it to replace my favorite vinyl pressings, but I don't even care about that.

    My limited number is 2561. It was worth the wait. Even this set arrived with just a very minor nick, but no big deal. I am happy.

    I want to again thank Doc for being so generous. It was a great contest! Thanks to everybody. Truly!

    Sabbath Forever!

    -Jeff
    Brother Jeff , warms my heart seeing and hearing how pumped you are (here and PM) about this awesome set!! .... And I'm sure our opinions on the sound quality of this gem are very similar compared to the true originals ,, as OID stated your truly one of the special posters on this site - and it would be a shame for no comment on sound from someone with an ear such as yours , esp for members (Jack , IRON-MaN , others) who would love your 'sound' review ,,, based on your product description already , I'm sure many are salivating for more.

    By the way , thankyou for helping make the contest exciting!


    God Bless

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Probably my very favorite was seeing Nick Mason give them so much credit, because of course Pink Floyd (well, mainly Roger Waters) were critical of Sabbath way back in the early days. To see that sort of come full circle was heartwarming, because it made me think about all these guys have been through.
    I'm sure I remember hearing that Roger appreciated Sabbath's directness. Of course, he may have changed his tune, after being critical in the first place.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    Jeff, youíre one of my favorite posters on here, so happy to hear you got your replacement box, enjoy it brother you deserve it!
    Thank you, OID. And I feel the same way about your contributions here.


    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post

    If you donít mind me asking what is the quote by Nick Mason?
    "If you know anything about rock, then you'll realise how important Black Sabbath have been. They are one of the most influential bands of the past fifty years or so. You cannot overestimate what they have meant to the way heavy metal has developed. I'm not an aficionado of metal music at all, but I appreciate their impact. And if I know what they've achieved, then it really makes the point that they are giants!"
    -Nick Mason
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
    Brother Jeff , warms my heart seeing and hearing how pumped you are (here and PM) about this awesome set!! .... And I'm sure our opinions on the sound quality of this gem are very similar compared to the true originals ,, as OID stated your truly one of the special posters on this site - and it would be a shame for no comment on sound from someone with an ear such as yours , esp for members (Jack , IRON-MaN , others) who would love your 'sound' review ,,, based on your product description already , I'm sure many are salivating for more.

    By the way , thankyou for helping make the contest exciting!


    God Bless
    Thanks, Doc. I just love the set. At some point I might chime in on sound, but as vinyl is these days my number one way to enjoy music, I am aware that these are not AAA, but instead pressed from hi-res digital. IMO, pure analog can never be matched. But that doesn't mean hi-res, well mastered vinyl can't sound great in its own way.

    I suspect in a few years the Sabs will have a new vinyl box set, all analogue mastered. It'll probably cost twice as much. And we'll all want that set, too! It's hard to ever get enough when it comes to this band. ;-)
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Thank you, OID. And I feel the same way about your contributions here.




    "If you know anything about rock, then you'll realise how important Black Sabbath have been. They are one of the most influential bands of the past fifty years or so. You cannot overestimate what they have meant to the way heavy metal has developed. I'm not an aficionado of metal music at all, but I appreciate their impact. And if I know what they've achieved, then it really makes the point that they are giants!"
    -Nick Mason
    Thank you Jeff.

    Nice quote from Nick Mason, really nice to see recognition for the Sabs!
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I suspect in a few years the Sabs will have a new vinyl box set, all analogue mastered. It'll probably cost twice as much. And we'll all want that set, too! It's hard to ever get enough when it comes to this band. ;-)
    And I'll be getting them too!!

    Too bad The Ten Year War wasn't available here in the U.S., I already missed out on the first Vinyl boxset that was available here.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    And I'll be getting them too!!

    Too bad The Ten Year War wasn't available here in the U.S., I already missed out on the first Vinyl boxset that was available here.
    It does appear that it will be possible to order it in the US in January:

    https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Year-War-...ar+war+box+set
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    It does appear that it will be possible to order it in the US in January:

    https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Year-War-...ar+war+box+set
    Thanks for the info Jeff.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  11. #131
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    Regarding the limitation of the TYW box set, I wrote the following on discogs about a month ago:

    We have no official confirmation of the quantities, but all the copies I've seen so far (on ebay, discogs, youtube etc.) seem to line up with the following pattern:
    0001 - 0050/0050 Ltd. Gold version with art print (not signed) - 50 copies (confirmed)
    0051 - 0100/1000 Ltd. version with art print (signed) - 50 copies (not confirmed)
    0101 - 1000/1000 Ltd. version with art print (not signed) - 900 copies (not confirmed)
    1001 - 3500/3500 Ltd. version without art print - 2500 copies (not confirmed)
    Please comment if you have a copy (or evidence of one) that does not fit in here.
    Does anyone here have a copy that does not line up with this?

    Also, I have been observing the copies being offered for sale (mainly on ebay and discogs) since before the official release date, and I have never come across a golden box being sold, while I have seen plenty of the signed ones, especially on ebay. Since there are supposed to be 50 copies each, that's rather odd. My assumption is that the gold version has been used for internal distribution (given to people in the management, the band, the label ect.) and that only a fraction of the 50 copies have actually been sold to the public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Thanks, Doc. I just love the set. At some point I might chime in on sound, but as vinyl is these days my number one way to enjoy music, I am aware that these are not AAA, but instead pressed from hi-res digital. IMO, pure analog can never be matched. But that doesn't mean hi-res, well mastered vinyl can't sound great in its own way.

    I suspect in a few years the Sabs will have a new vinyl box set, all analogue mastered. It'll probably cost twice as much. And we'll all want that set, too! It's hard to ever get enough when it comes to this band. ;-)
    Wow, do you really think that will happen? Pure analog? Does it happen with other bands already? If so, I guess they first need to get some new equipment and train their personell for such a job? Everybody seems to work digitally these days, at least at some point of the process...

    And yes, if it happens, it will of course be VERY expensive.

    I have always been wondering if vinyl releases from digital sources (hi-res or not) make any sense at all. if i ever seriously start listening to and collecting vinyl, i imagine i will try to get good copies of the original pressings...

    By the way, the "Ten Year War" also seems to be available as hi-res 24/96 official download:
    http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/the.../4050538337839
    https://www.highresaudio.com/de/albu...009-remastered

    If the tracklisting is correct (unlike the "2009 remaster" info which is wrong), "Wicked World" is missing. Which is probably the only difference to the 2014 hi-res 24/96 official download release where "Wicked World" was included but "Evil Woman" was missing. Oh well...

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    If so, I guess they first need to get some new equipment and train their personell for such a job? Everybody seems to work digitally these days, at least at some point of the process...
    That's a very good point. One of the reasons mono copies of vinyl from the late sixties/early seventies have always been more desirable on the collector's market than their stereo counterparts is precisely that. The gear is just a tool. The people turning the knobs need to have the experience to work the tools - and the mojo to create magic.
    gadji beri bimba glandridi laula lonni cadori - Ball

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynlsol View Post
    That's a very good point. One of the reasons mono copies of vinyl from the late sixties/early seventies have always been more desirable on the collector's market than their stereo counterparts is precisely that. The gear is just a tool. The people turning the knobs need to have the experience to work the tools - and the mojo to create magic.
    Exactly. :-)

  15. #135

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    It's already happening.

    Lots of titles released as AAA. More so Jazz than Rock but plenty of rock available and surely there will be more.

    Shop at places like Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc or even Music Direct (who now own MoFi). All analogue is everywhere and it will continue to grow, IMO.

    Plenty of engineers out there still know what they're doing. Guys like Bernie Grundman, Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman, Krieg Wunderlich ... these guys have been around. Even younger guys like Ryan Smith who studied under George Marino at Sterling.

    Look, I could be wrong, but look at the trends. Like Hendrix (Axis Bold As Love) being announced as a so-called "One Step" UHQR LP. It will be mastered direct from the master tape to the cutting lathe by Bernie Grundman. Pre-orders are expected to sell out the entire limited run of 5,000 Stereo and 2,500 Mono. Each LP costs $100. I can't imagine that this kind of thing won't draw attention from plenty of others sitting on catalogs of classic and highly regarded albums. There's too much money there. Already Santana Abraxas was done like this. I think it sold out the entire 2,500 copies on pre-order and people couldn't get it. And it was also $100 a pop!

    And that's the ultra-snazzy market stuff. The market in the $25-$50 range is already there for stuff mastered analogue. Check out the sites I've mentioned.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    It's already happening.

    Lots of titles released as AAA. More so Jazz than Rock but plenty of rock available and surely there will be more.

    Shop at places like Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc or even Music Direct (who now own MoFi). All analogue is everywhere and it will continue to grow, IMO.

    Plenty of engineers out there still know what they're doing. Guys like Bernie Grundman, Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman, Krieg Wunderlich ... these guys have been around. Even younger guys like Ryan Smith who studied under George Marino at Sterling.

    Look, I could be wrong, but look at the trends. Like Hendrix (Axis Bold As Love) being announced as a so-called "One Step" UHQR LP. It will be mastered direct from the master tape to the cutting lathe by Bernie Grundman. Pre-orders are expected to sell out the entire limited run of 5,000 Stereo and 2,500 Mono. Each LP costs $100. I can't imagine that this kind of thing won't draw attention from plenty of others sitting on catalogs of classic and highly regarded albums. There's too much money there. Already Santana Abraxas was done like this. I think it sold out the entire 2,500 copies on pre-order and people couldn't get it. And it was also $100 a pop!

    And that's the ultra-snazzy market stuff. The market in the $25-$50 range is already there for stuff mastered analogue. Check out the sites I've mentioned.
    Thank you Jeff. I wasn't even aware of that. Well, there's money in it, so I guess it is likely to come indeed. I didn't find a real definition of "AAA" on the internet, though I do remember I read something like "AAD" or "ADD" on some of my (older) CDs. Does AAA mean that a recording has been recorded on analog equipment, stored on analog tapes and is finally put on an analog medium (like vinyl)?

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Does AAA mean that a recording has been recorded on analog equipment, stored on analog tapes and is finally put on an analog medium (like vinyl)?
    If I remember correctly, the first A stands for analog recording, the second A for analog mixing, and the third A for analog mastering.

    Edit: That is indeed what AAA means.
    SPARS_code (Wikipedia)
    Last edited by southernlord; 12-05-2017 at 05:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southernlord View Post
    If I remember correctly, the first A stands for analog recording, the second A for analog mixing, and the third A for analog mastering.

    Edit: That is indeed what AAA means.
    SPARS_code (Wikipedia)
    Thank you!

  19. #139

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    Yeah, basically AAA means that the sound you get has never touched digital at any stage.

    You'll see a lot of releases dancing around the subject. Sometimes it's not that what they say isn't good but what they don't mention. IE: "Remastered from the original tapes." "Sourced from the original masters." "Audiophile Edition Pressed on 180 Gram Virgin Vinyl." Blah blah blah ...

    What you want (if analogue is the goal) is something taken from analogue, mastered in analogue and cut in analogue. If you have LPs pressed at somewhere like GZ Vinyl, you can bet it is from digital. They might be able to do analogue by now but I doubt that equals 1% of their business.

    More reputable plants in the US like RTI and QRP do analogue all the time. Pallas in Germany as well.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Yeah, basically AAA means that the sound you get has never touched digital at any stage.

    You'll see a lot of releases dancing around the subject. Sometimes it's not that what they say isn't good but what they don't mention. IE: "Remastered from the original tapes." "Sourced from the original masters." "Audiophile Edition Pressed on 180 Gram Virgin Vinyl." Blah blah blah ...

    What you want (if analogue is the goal) is something taken from analogue, mastered in analogue and cut in analogue. If you have LPs pressed at somewhere like GZ Vinyl, you can bet it is from digital. They might be able to do analogue by now but I doubt that equals 1% of their business.

    More reputable plants in the US like RTI and QRP do analogue all the time. Pallas in Germany as well.
    Thank you very much Jeff.

  21. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Thank you very much Jeff.
    You're most welcome, Linda.

    Btw, when I mentioned RTI, QRP and Pallas doing analog vinyl cutting "all the time" I just meant that it is very common at these plants. These plants can cut from digital, too, obviously. But they specialize in being sent lacquers from places like Bernie Grundman mastering in Los Angeles. As opposed to somebody uploading a hi-res file or even just a CD version to be cut to vinyl.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

  22. #142
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    Can't wait to get some MP3s of the AAA recordings.

    Hang on, am I doin it wrong?

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I have received my box!

    This set is absolutely gorgeous. The book is fantastic! So many memorable quotes from other musicians. Probably my very favorite was seeing Nick Mason give them so much credit, because of course Pink Floyd (well, mainly Roger Waters) were critical of Sabbath way back in the early days. To see that sort of come full circle was heartwarming, because it made me think about all these guys have been through.

    The reproduction of the '78 Tour Book is sensational! And the reprint of the '78 Promo Press Cartoon Magazine is a real gem! I used to own a copy of the real thing many years ago, but at some point I think I sold it or put it away somewhere, but now I have it again for sure. That magazine is a real treasure. Sabbath's PR Team were clearly trying to convert some non-believers in the late 70s. Who can blame the band for being on board after so much criticism by ignorant, musically inept writers. They wanted to survive and expand their reach. And whatever some people think of TE and NSD, they did survive and even thrived.

    To have Mint copies of all the UK covers is a real joy. I am not going to get into debates about sound on this set. I don't expect it to replace my favorite vinyl pressings, but I don't even care about that.

    My limited number is 2561. It was worth the wait. Even this set arrived with just a very minor nick, but no big deal. I am happy.

    I want to again thank Doc for being so generous. It was a great contest! Thanks to everybody. Truly!

    Sabbath Forever!

    -Jeff
    That's awesome Jeff \m/
    Post some cool pics

  24. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronn View Post
    That's awesome Jeff \m/
    Post some cool pics
    I figured since there are now unboxing videos everywhere nobody would care about pics any more!
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
    -WTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    You're most welcome, Linda.

    Btw, when I mentioned RTI, QRP and Pallas doing analog vinyl cutting "all the time" I just meant that it is very common at these plants. These plants can cut from digital, too, obviously. But they specialize in being sent lacquers from places like Bernie Grundman mastering in Los Angeles. As opposed to somebody uploading a hi-res file or even just a CD version to be cut to vinyl.
    Thanks again Jeff. How about Reel-to-Reel? Would it not even make much more sense for AAA to be released on R2R rather than vinyl? I just read this article:
    https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9...ro-audio-trend

  26. #146

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    Here is a new and quite interesting interview with Andy Pearce on 'The Ten Year War' box set remastering process ....
    https://theaudiophileman.com/black-s...ox-set-review/

    TALKING TO ANDY PEARCE

    Freelance mastering engineers Andy Pearce and Matt Wortham worked on this new box set, “Years ago, reissues where produced along the lines of ‘This is the budget, here’s the stuff, get on with it’,” said Pearce. “A bare bones approach. Nowadays, we like to do more bespoke productions, getting the best tapes, strict A-B tests, finding the earliest generations and that kind of detail”

    Pearce calls this approach “Drains up”, which is a familiar term in his sector of the industry. This is a housing metaphor, when a house is thoroughly repaired and improved from the very bottom (the drains), upwards to the very top. That is, the best job you can possibly do. This approach has been applied to the Black Sabbath, Ten Year War box set.

    A host of tools were used to get the job done, “I used a Studer A820 master recorder which has a Ĺ” and ľ” rig set up,” said Pearce. “The A820 was the last real professional model that was manufactured. It’s in particularly good order, still looks brand new. I’ve used Ampex machines in the past – which sound great – but the transport of the Studer is so kind to the tape.”

    And its the original master tape that was used during the creation of this box tape. In fact, while using the tape as a source, Pearce took nothing for granted and paid careful attention to every note. One note of welcome OCD-like focus arose when Pearce and Wortham attended to the LP, Paranoid, “There’s a real dirge-like section in there. We were not sure if this was the music itself or damage. We’ve remastered this album on at least four occasions in the past but we had more license to address this remaster in fine detail. I talked to the label and asked for another source to compare. I had to see if the tape had been damaged in the past or if it was meant to be like that. “I went over to the management office and picked up an early copy of the album from the vault which had not been previously seen by me. Chances are that it was less used and less chance of damage. I signed a loan form (while the archive manager commented that, if I didn’t return the disc soon, they’d have my legs off.) Which I found quite…amusing. I quickly ran over to the studio, transferred the disc to my studio and ran it back. Legs intact.”

    BLACK SABBATH’S TEN YEAR WAR - THE ULTIMATE GUIDE

    And, would you believe it, this dark section was actually meant to be dark and brooding. It wasn’t damage after all. That said, any Black Sabbath fan would applaud Pearce for caring enough to find out in the first place.

    “I wanted to check this because of the dubbed nature of some of the tape around that time and the fact that some tape of the era shed oxide. Ampex in particular, where the binder would absorb water resulting in flaking on the heads.”

    Some of Black Sabbath masters from the later 70s decade did suffer from oxide shedding but Pearce managed to conserve the tapes before any aural damage could be heard.

    “When we receive a tape, the first thing we do is smell it – you can smell the damp on it. We’ve even seen mould on tape. Once you start to move the tape, the damp becomes airborne so you have to wear a mask. You don’t know what’s in that stuff. We do a test on a blank piece of non-music tape to see how it bears up. If it starts to leave a residue on the head then its into the oven for baking.”

    The baking removes the moisture in the tape and fixes the oxide to the master tape itself. If done carefully and gently, the tape itself can enjoy many more years of use.

    “Before we remaster, we listen to many of the early LP releases as possible as well as the tape. To get a feel for the music and the levels, EQs and the like. These are used as references.”

    BLACK SABBATH’S TEN YEAR WAR - THE ULTIMATE GUIDE

    From there, the music was transferred to 24bit/96kHz for editing. Fortunately, in terms of the actual editing, there was nothing dramatic required although, “We did ‘topping and tailing’. This is getting rid of noise in the gaps between tracks or the leader track,” said Pearce. “I didn’t de-noise or de-hiss the actual music, though. I don’t think that the technology is there yet to get rid of this in the music itself so I left well alone. There’s always a danger of forgetting about the music and concentrating too much on the noise. Which results in damage to the music itself. The music is priceless. I’d rather hear a bit of third generation hiss than something that sounds unnatural and squeaky. You need to treat the music with respect.”

    ANDY PEARCE ON…
    Never Turn Your Back on a Spooling Tape

    “I did that once when I was younger to have a cup of tea, only to return to see the floor full of one inch bits shredded all over the floor. You make one mistake like that and you never do it again. The engineer, who had gone down to the pub, leaving me to do a few bits and pieces came back and said, ‘You can edit that all back together.’ I was about 18 at the time. I was horrified! He was joking but he apparently enjoyed the look on my face that moment, though.”

    Reel-To-Reel ‘Others’

    “I do have other machines for other tasks. I have a collection that comes in handy. For example, a Bang & Olufsen which I use to transfer tapes. Mainly because you could use two tracks in one direction and then turn the tape over and have two tracks in the other direction. The machine was used domestically to make demos and, sometimes, I receive tapes in that format and on varying tape speeds (tape was expensive then). I also have a Akai 4000DB for similar reasons.”

    SOUND QUALITY
    I tested the new vinyl with a host of original pressings to see how the box set measured up in sonic terms. After cleaning all discs with an Audio Desk’s ultrasonic Pro Vinyl Cleaner (www.audioconsultants.co.uk) I compared the debut, Master of Reality (1970) with the (now rather expensive) Vertigo original. The most important part of this record is the overall feel of the music: that dirge-like, wading though mud-type rock progression. The new cuts retain that feel of enclosure and claustrophobia. What is different, though is the clarity. There is much more available on this new remaster. Right from the stereo channel-spanning cough at the beginning of Sweet Leaf, you can hear great intonation and detail. Osborne’s own vocal performance is far clearer, allowing more emotion to seep through the rock meat. You can hear nuance and more effort in his singing. Percussion is similarly clear, treble-based cymbals are sweeter and retain an extra splashy nature. Iommi’s guitar is notably more intricate but the big winner here is the bass guitar which emerges from the depth of the rock pit to become a bigger part of the overall mix.

    BLACK SABBATH’S TEN YEAR WAR - THE ULTIMATE GUIDE

    On the original Vertigo issue of Vol.4 (1972) now and Wheels of Confusion as was surprised to hear a much wider and broader soundstage on the remaster. There was far more air and space here which allowed the drums and cymbals to manoeuvre, combining the power of the bass with the delicacy of the drums. Osborne’s own vocals, rather pinched on the original, now had a fuller and richer quality on the remaster. Most startling of all was the lower volume. I assume the original has a touch of extra compression, the remaster removes that, allowing you to up the volume and access even more detail.

    I then moved to a later album release, Technical Ecstasy (1976) and Back Street Kids. This one would be interesting because the remaster had to cope with shedding oxide and baking to allow processing. The result is a triumph! The new sense of clarity brings this track to life, adding points of detail were none previously existed. Cymbal work is fresh and offers delicate responses, while the guitars have been brought forward to the ear instead of being squashed into the rear of the mix. The vocals, meanwhile, have been lifted a touch, to separate them a little from the band itself.

    I tried something a little different with Paranoid (1970) and the track Warpigs by playing the original Vertigo issue then comparing that with the later NEMs reissue (1976) and then the new remaster.

    BLACK SABBATH’S TEN YEAR WAR - THE ULTIMATE GUIDE

    In comparison to the original cut, the NEMS reissue lifts the midrange, adding a slight compressive edge which does highlight the detail and adds pace and life to the music but also adds a slight clinical vibe to the LP. The remaster also lifts the detail but does so in a completely different way. Adding a spacious and airy midrange, it increases the richness and the size of the soundstage, opening up the detail and removing the veiling that could be heard on the original release.

    The improvements continued throughout this box set, confirming the superiority of the sonics from this box set, even when compared to the referred original Vertigo cuts. The dynamic reach has been enhanced, detail now rolls towards the ears in tidal waves while loudness and compression are not part of this package. A brilliant and impressive suite of vinyl remasters that form part of a superb set. Highly recommended for any fan of heavy rock and an absolutely essential purchase for any Sabbath fan who wants to hear what really going on in these classic albums.
    Last edited by IRON-MaN; 12-13-2017 at 05:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Here is a new and quite interesting interview with Andy Pearce on 'The Ten Year War' box set remastering process ....
    https://theaudiophileman.com/black-s...ox-set-review/
    Thanks very much, IRON-MaN, for posting this! Very interesting indeed!

    I just read it. Did I overlook anything, or does the author really not mention WHEN exactly the remastering process took place? The whole article makes it look like it was a recent remastering specifically for the Ten Year War box, while in fact it happened in 2012 and the same mastering was already used on multiple (2012 vinyl, 2014 hi-res, 2016 redbook CD, 2017 Ten Year War) releases. Again, it is an interesting article for some of the details on the mastering process given by Andy Pearce. But the way it deals with the date issue makes it advertising rather than journalism.
    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 12-13-2017 at 07:35 AM.

  28. #148
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    Thank you for the great read IRON-MaN.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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    Default Has anybody checked if the vinyl discs possibly contain a new remaster?

    Hey folks,

    I have another question regarding the Ten Year War box vinyl set: Did anybody compare the sound of the vinyl LPs to the sound of the MQA-FLAC files included? Or the sound of the Ten Year War LPs to the sound of the 2012 Vinyl Collection LPs? Since this article seems to imply that the TYW is from a fresh&new remaster, there is maybe a (very slight) chance that they used that remaster for the vinyl but the older 2012 remaster for the digital files?

    To be sure, that sounds not likely of course. I just want to be rule it out based on evidence. I don't have the vinyl set since I don't really collect vinyl, I just have the official 24/96 download version <http://www.qobuz.com/de-de/album/the-ten-year-war-2009-remaster-black-sabbath/4050538337839>. I also tested some of the MQA/FLAC files included in the vinyl set (same mastering/sound as the 24/96 download).

    The TYW digital files are DEFINITELY the same mastering as the 2014HDtracks hi-res downloads and the 2016 Warner-Rhino redbook CDs (which are based on the 2012 remaster). In this respect, I can fully confirm Alex' and Jeff's findings above. (Many tracks even have exactly the same dynamic range (DR) values.) Since the PR around the TYW box set makes such a fuss about the allegedly 'new' remaster, I think we should check if possibly at least the vinyl contains a new mastering.

    If it doesn't (and that's what I expect), this id probably the most misleading PR campaign for a Sabbath remaster ever. I mean, on the one hand the TYW digital download download release claims to be sourced from the 2009 remaster, on the other hand this article and many other sources claim it is a fresh remaster, while in fact everything seems to be from 2012 - seriously?

    Any help from you vinyl guys would be appreciated.

    Best,
    Linda

  30. #150

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    Linda , truth be told , it's not what you call a "fresh" remaster ..... but it's a gorgeous sounding vinyl set ..... furthermore , in today's world of accurate transfers through digital ,,,, triple A and reel to reel are not as "easy" to work with , though they (triple A and RTR) sound significantly more life like ..... people make the mistake that "volume" and "clarity" are somehow superior to the original sound ,,, when more times than not it's a backwards move. Please also understand you can "remaster" without truly remastering , so A will ALWAYS sound like B - no matter how many times you "remaster" as just a digital "cleaning" tool - takes literally seconds to accomplish , hence here you have your remaster.

    Linda , two other points from this read ..... Paul is incorrect , not a matter of taste , a matter of playback ..... what I mean is , as nice as the new product sounds , original pressings are all over it - in terms of EVERYTHING! ,,,,, And proper playback makes this obvious.

    Talking about playback , you can have the EXACT same digital transfer on vinyl as you do CD as you do any other software - and it sound "diffetent" based on the equipment used to transfer it and the playback system / room used to hear it.


    God Bless

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    Quote Originally Posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
    Linda , truth be told , it's not what you call a "fresh" remaster ..... but it's a gorgeous sounding vinyl set ..... furthermore , in today's world of accurate transfers through digital ,,,, triple A and reel to reel are not as "easy" to work with , though they (triple A and RTR) sound significantly more life like ..... people make the mistake that "volume" and "clarity" are somehow superior to the original sound ,,, when more times than not it's a backwards move. Please also understand you can "remaster" without truly remastering , so A will ALWAYS sound like B - no matter how many times you "remaster" as just a digital "cleaning" tool - takes literally seconds to accomplish , hence here you have your remaster.

    Linda , two other points from this read ..... Paul is incorrect , not a matter of taste , a matter of playback ..... what I mean is , as nice as the new product sounds , original pressings are all over it - in terms of EVERYTHING! ,,,,, And proper playback makes this obvious.

    Talking about playback , you can have the EXACT same digital transfer on vinyl as you do CD as you do any other software - and it sound "diffetent" based on the equipment used to transfer it and the playback system / room used to hear it.

    God Bless

    Thanks for your comments! Yep, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here - except that I have almost zero expertise in listening to original vinyl records, so I haven't really had the chance to develop my own opinion on how they sound in comparison to modern remasters, but I am aware that many (not all!) modern remasters sound like shit.

    I am aware that even two copies of the same mastering can sound very different due to many, many reasons; and that a vinyl and a digital copy from the same mastering can of course sound very different. However, a well-schooled ear will at least in some cases still notice the similarities. And in case of the Ten Year Box vs. the 2012 vinyl box, it is very well possible that ALL included copies (vinyl 2012, MP3 2012, vinyl 2017, MQA-FLAC 2017) sound pretty much the same. The reason why I keek inquiring is that apparently the marketing of the Ten Year War box comes with a lot of false and misleading information. If people buy the box and like it, hey, I am happy to hear they like it. I just don't want any fan to pay such an amount of money just because they believe this is new and better then what they have (as the advertising and articles like the one above are suggesting) when in fact many of them have exactly purchased the same music and sound already since 2012 (vinyl+MP3), 2014 (hi-res downloads) or 2016 (CDs). Again, if a fan is aware of all this but still wants to purchase the new box (maybe because of the artwork or booklet or whatever extra), fine! I just don't want Sabbath fans to be cheated by marketing and bad journalists. And IMHO that's clearly what's happening here.

    Best,
    Linda
    Last edited by Sabbabbath; 12-14-2017 at 07:57 AM.

  32. #152

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    Linda , I've taken heat here from Joe himself for stating without doubt , that the last 2 WB remasters , though being EXACTLY the same (besides a simple digital "cleaning) - actually sound quite different ...... fact.

    Same in this case , the latest "Ten Year War" , though not a "true" (hope that makes sense) remaster (and it's not) .... has a different sound quality to it overall 'vs' direct comparisons with one and the same.

    Linda , if you would (have Roller , Jeff , Alex) .... someone you trust help you find an original vinyl (or the best original CD , if you are without a table) that you can find (regardless of price , although "Forbidden" is rather insane , and since it was 95 would defeat the purpose) .... order it for yourself , and leave me a PM with your name address and zip , along with product price and shipping price - and I will mail you a check to cover it.


    God Bless

  33. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Thanks for your comments! Yep, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here - except that I have almost zero expertise in listening to original vinyl records, so I haven't really had the chance to develop my own opinion on how they sound in comparison to modern remasters, but I am aware that many (not all!) modern remasters sound like shit.

    I am aware that even two copies of the same mastering can sound very different due to many, many reasons; and that a vinyl and a digital copy from the same mastering can of course sound very different. However, a well-schooled ear will at least in some cases still notice the similarities. And in case of the Ten Year Box vs. the 2012 vinyl box, it is very well possible that ALL included copies (vinyl 2012, MP3 2012, vinyl 2017, MQA-FLAC 2017) sound pretty much the same. The reason why I keek inquiring is that apparently the marketing of the Ten Year War box comes with a lot of false and misleading information. If people buy the box and like it, hey, I am happy to hear they like it. I just don't want any fan to pay such an amount of money just because they believe this is new and better then what they have (as the advertising and articles like the one above are suggesting) when in fact many of them have exactly purchased the same music and sound already since 2012 (vinyl+MP3), 2014 (hi-res downloads) or 2016 (CDs). Again, if a fan is aware of all this but still wants to purchase the new box (maybe because of the artwork or booklet or whatever extra), fine! I just don't want Sabbath fans to be cheated by marketing and bad journalists. And IMHO that's clearly what's happening here.

    Best,
    Linda
    Linda , I think its a bit too harsh to call such an article and journalism cheating by any means ! For starters there ain't much coming from the journalist himself , its mainly Andy explaining whatever process with these particular remasters (and I don't really find the point of going into further details on older ones) , I also found Andy's explanation quite useful for the casual fans without going into quite complex technical details , plus he did mention a few particular examples on MOR and 'Back Street Kids' , I believe 99% of the die hard fans would buy such box sets for a thousand other reasons rather than pursing 'the best versions of these albums' to date !

    Again , I've personally bought the albums with no particular expectations or knowing much about those MQA digital versions , so I wasn't listening to them with the idea of them being better ringing in the back of my head , its totally the other way round ! Reading Andy's description resonates perfectly with my exact impressions I've heard from these remasters ! And again they're extremely close to those remasters I own from the 2012 (Vinyl Box Set remasters) , its not that they are day and night better or different , but overall and compared to other remasters and versions I own , they sound the best , its a personal preference and its doesn't necessarily mean everyone should be taking my (or any ones opinion for granted).

  34. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
    Linda , I've taken heat here from Joe himself for stating without doubt , that the last 2 WB remasters , though being EXACTLY the same (besides a simple digital "cleaning) - actually sound quite different ...... fact.

    Same in this case , the latest "Ten Year War" , though not a "true" (hope that makes sense) remaster (and it's not) .... has a different sound quality to it overall 'vs' direct comparisons with one and the same.

    Linda , if you would (have Roller , Jeff , Alex) .... someone you trust help you find an original vinyl (or the best original CD , if you are without a table) that you can find (regardless of price , although "Forbidden" is rather insane , and since it was 95 would defeat the purpose) .... order it for yourself , and leave me a PM with your name address and zip , along with product price and shipping price - and I will mail you a check to cover it.

    God Bless
    WOW! Thank you so, so much for this great and generous offer, Doc! It is greatly appreciated! It might all be a little complicate since I live in Germany and not in the US. But again, I do appreciate your kindness! I will think about it a little and PM you sometime next week or so.

    As for the Ten Year War box, well, if two audio recordings are identical, and then one of them undergoes some "simple digital cleaning", then they are really not "exactly the same" at all anymore. :-) If the mastering used for the TYW had been "digitally cleant up" for the TYW release, then it would totally make sense that it sounds different. The reason why I was asking for the sound of the vinyl was that with the digital files, I simply cannot confirm that there's ANY difference (for the 2017 TYW vs. 2014 HDtracks, the latter being sourced from the 2012 remaster), other than super-small mini-differences in wave view which are really too small to account for any significant difference in sound. On the contrary, not only do both versions sound 100% the same to me, but many technical details, including dynamic range values (DR), are the same or extremely similar at least for most songs. While many people may think that even small digital differences may account for big differences in actual sound, in fact the opposite is true: Even small differences in sound are usually extremely visible in wave view, DR values etc. Very small differences visible in the wave forms are more often than not inaudible. Again, I cannot compare the sound of the LPs, but for the digital files, I strongly doubt that there is any significant difference - even a 'little digital cleanup' would produce huge differences on the technical side that are really not there as far as I can see. (See, e.g., the DR values for SBS 2014 vs. 2017 that I will include below in this message.)

    Many thanks again!

    Best,
    Linda

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Linda , I think its a bit too harsh to call such an article and journalism cheating by any means ! For starters there ain't much coming from the journalist himself , its mainly Andy explaining whatever process with these particular remasters (and I don't really find the point of going into further details on older ones) , I also found Andy's explanation quite useful for the casual fans without going into quite complex technical details , plus he did mention a few particular examples on MOR and 'Back Street Kids' , I believe 99% of the die hard fans would buy such box sets for a thousand other reasons rather than pursing 'the best versions of these albums' to date !

    Again , I've personally bought the albums with no particular expectations or knowing much about those MQA digital versions , so I wasn't listening to them with the idea of them being better ringing in the back of my head , its totally the other way round ! Reading Andy's description resonates perfectly with my exact impressions I've heard from these remasters ! And again they're extremely close to those remasters I own from the 2012 (Vinyl Box Set remasters) , its not that they are day and night better or different , but overall and compared to other remasters and versions I own , they sound the best , its a personal preference and its doesn't necessarily mean everyone should be taking my (or any ones opinion for granted).

    I-Man, I totally respect your and other people's opinions about this remaster. When I used the term "cheating", I was not referring to this journalist in particular, but more generally to the PC campain around the TYW box. From what you wrote, I am not sure if you got my main point, since you are still talking about "these remasters" vs. "those remasters from 2012", while both releases you're referring to are, to the best of our knowledge (and if anybody has prove to correct me, please feel welcome to bring it up), from the SAME remaster. Thus, the whole process that Andy describes here took already place in 2012. And the resulting mastering was (be it in pretty much identical form, as Alex and Jeff and I claim, or slightly modified, as you and the Doc claim) already used for earlier releases in 2012, 2014 and 2016. I am not asking the journalist or Andy to give more technical details about the remastering process (I did appreciate the details they mentioned, by the way), I am just asking one thing: why not say WHEN it happened? If it is true that the processes described here took already place in 2012, then it is seriously misleading to describe it like it happened recently (and that's what the journalist does). Honestly, asking a journalist to mention in which YEAR the events they describe happened, should really not be too much to ask if we take journalistic standards any seriously. I don't think I am harsh here at all. I just think that journalism should be different from advertising.

    Again, I am very sorry if it sounded like I do not respect other people's opinions. I did hear you when you said you hear a difference, a small but significant one, and I did hear you when you said you did not EXPECT this result. I do hear you. And I do respect your and other people's opinions. It's just that my ears and especially the comparison of technical details leads me to different conclusions.

    And I hate bad journalism and false promises. That's all. :-)

    To illustrate my point about the technical side of things, see below the dynamic range values for SBS from the 2017 TYW hi-res download release and, below that, from the 2014 hi-res download release. You don't even need to fully understand what these values mean. Just have a quick look: The important thing is that the values are 100% identical for each and every song! (Same goes for Vol. 4; Sabotage has slightly different values for a few songs. I haven't tested DR values of the other albums.) And there is simply no way, technically, for two different versions of an album to have these values identical for every song. It does not happen in practice. On the contrary, even identical-sounding files often differ in these values. And if the process that Andy described in the article had really taken place in 2017 (or 2016 or 2015), then we would DEFINITELY see HUGE differences here (and everybody would hear them too).

    Peace.

    Linda

    foobar2000 1.3.16 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
    log date: 2017-12-11 22:27:25

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: Black Sabbath / Sabbath Bloody Sabbath / 2017 The Ten Year War official hi-res download files
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR10 -0.66 dB -12.75 dB 5:47 34-Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
    DR11 -0.66 dB -14.39 dB 6:15 35-A National Acrobat
    DR11 -2.45 dB -17.20 dB 4:09 36-Fluff
    DR11 -0.66 dB -14.26 dB 5:57 37-Sabbra Cadabra
    DR10 -0.66 dB -12.81 dB 5:42 38-Killing Yourself to Live
    DR12 -0.66 dB -14.50 dB 4:11 39-Who Are You?
    DR11 -0.66 dB -13.92 dB 5:01 40-Looking for Today
    DR12 -0.66 dB -15.27 dB 5:27 41-Spiral Architect
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of tracks: 8
    Official DR value: DR11

    Samplerate: 96000 Hz
    Channels: 2
    Bits per sample: 24
    Bitrate: 2959 kbps
    Codec: FLAC
    ================================================== ==============================


    foobar2000 1.3.16 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
    log date: 2017-12-11 22:26:58

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: Black Sabbath / Sabbath Bloody Sabbath / 2014 HDtracks official hi-res download files
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR10 -0.66 dB -12.75 dB 5:47 01-Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
    DR11 -0.66 dB -14.39 dB 6:15 02-A National Acrobat
    DR11 -2.45 dB -17.20 dB 4:09 03-Fluff
    DR11 -0.66 dB -14.26 dB 5:57 04-Sabbra Cadabra
    DR10 -0.66 dB -12.81 dB 5:42 05-Killing Yourself To Live
    DR12 -0.66 dB -14.50 dB 4:11 06-Who Are You?
    DR11 -0.66 dB -13.92 dB 5:01 07-Looking For Today
    DR12 -0.66 dB -15.27 dB 5:27 08-Spiral Architect
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of tracks: 8
    Official DR value: DR11

    Samplerate: 96000 Hz
    Channels: 2
    Bits per sample: 24
    Bitrate: 2960 kbps
    Codec: FLAC
    ================================================== ==============================

  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRON-MaN View Post
    Linda , I think its a bit too harsh to call such an article and journalism cheating by any means ! For starters there ain't much coming from the journalist himself , its mainly Andy explaining whatever process with these particular remasters (and I don't really find the point of going into further details on older ones) , I also found Andy's explanation quite useful for the casual fans without going into quite complex technical details , plus he did mention a few particular examples on MOR and 'Back Street Kids' , I believe 99% of the die hard fans would buy such box sets for a thousand other reasons rather than pursing 'the best versions of these albums' to date !

    Again , I've personally bought the albums with no particular expectations or knowing much about those MQA digital versions , so I wasn't listening to them with the idea of them being better ringing in the back of my head , its totally the other way round ! Reading Andy's description resonates perfectly with my exact impressions I've heard from these remasters ! And again they're extremely close to those remasters I own from the 2012 (Vinyl Box Set remasters) , its not that they are day and night better or different , but overall and compared to other remasters and versions I own , they sound the best , its a personal preference and its doesn't necessarily mean everyone should be taking my (or any ones opinion for granted).
    Iím one of those diehard fans IRON-MaN, Iíd buy that box if I could, if they were all 8 track tapes.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

  37. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    I’m one of those diehard fans IRON-MaN, I’d buy that box if I could, if they were all 8 track tapes.
    OID , you deserve that set .....


    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    WOW! Thank you so, so much for this great and generous offer, Doc! It is greatly appreciated! It might all be a little complicate since I live in Germany and not in the US. But again, I do appreciate your kindness! I will think about it a little and PM you sometime next week or so.

    As for the Ten Year War box, well, if two audio recordings are identical, and then one of them undergoes some "simple digital cleaning", then they are really not "exactly the same" at all anymore. :-) If the mastering used for the TYW had been "digitally cleant up" for the TYW release, then it would totally make sense that it sounds different. The reason why I was asking for the sound of the vinyl was that with the digital files, I simply cannot confirm that there's ANY difference (for the 2017 TYW vs. 2014 HDtracks, the latter being sourced from the 2012 remaster), other than super-small mini-differences in wave view which are really too small to account for any significant difference in sound. On the contrary, not only do both versions sound 100% the same to me, but many technical details, including dynamic range values (DR), are the same or extremely similar at least for most songs. While many people may think that even small digital differences may account for big differences in actual sound, in fact the opposite is true: Even small differences in sound are usually extremely visible in wave view, DR values etc. Very small differences visible in the wave forms are more often than not inaudible. Again, I cannot compare the sound of the LPs, but for the digital files, I strongly doubt that there is any significant difference - even a 'little digital cleanup' would produce huge differences on the technical side that are really not there as far as I can see. (See, e.g., the DR values for SBS 2014 vs. 2017 that I will include below in this message.)

    Many thanks again!

    Best,
    Linda
    Linda , no problem at all , and Germany is also not an issue .... Enjoy hunting!


    OK , are you ready .... now take a deep breath , your not going to accept this , but I will state it any way :

    1) Both sets are slightly different , the sound proves it

    2) Digital cleaning - Will NOT always show up on measurements

    3) Masters with "digital cleaning" differences only , are still identical in the mastering process

    4) 2 , 3 , 4 things can measure EXACTLY the same and sound completely DIFFERENT

    5) Headphones are the worse tool for evaluating sound

    6) Sabbath is awesome ..... had to state something you would like


    God Bless

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    Quote Originally Posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
    OID , you deserve that set .....




    Linda , no problem at all , and Germany is also not an issue .... Enjoy hunting!


    OK , are you ready .... now take a deep breath , your not going to accept this , but I will state it any way :

    1) Both sets are slightly different , the sound proves it

    2) Digital cleaning - Will NOT always show up on measurements

    3) Masters with "digital cleaning" differences only , are still identical in the mastering process

    4) 2 , 3 , 4 things can measure EXACTLY the same and sound completely DIFFERENT

    5) Headphones are the worse tool for evaluating sound

    6) Sabbath is awesome ..... had to state something you would like


    God Bless
    An 8 track tape set would be serious \m/

    Measure the same and be out of phase doc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    I’m one of those diehard fans IRON-MaN, I’d buy that box if I could, if they were all 8 track tapes.
    If they were 8-track tapes, this box would be even much more attractive to purchase than it is now. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
    OID , you deserve that set .....




    Linda , no problem at all , and Germany is also not an issue .... Enjoy hunting!


    OK , are you ready .... now take a deep breath , your not going to accept this , but I will state it any way :

    1) Both sets are slightly different , the sound proves it

    2) Digital cleaning - Will NOT always show up on measurements

    3) Masters with "digital cleaning" differences only , are still identical in the mastering process

    4) 2 , 3 , 4 things can measure EXACTLY the same and sound completely DIFFERENT

    5) Headphones are the worse tool for evaluating sound

    6) Sabbath is awesome ..... had to state something you would like


    God Bless
    Many thanks again, Doc!!!

    As you expected, f course I have to disagree with 2) and 4): there is no 'digital cleanup' that will not be measurable some way or other. The nature of digital files is that any information stored on them is digital (and thus measurable); and information that is not stored digitally on the digital medium is simply not there and will of course be indaudible. The only way digitally identical files will sound different is if they are played on different equipments, or different rooms, or stored on different material/media. If all these conditions are identical for both files the files are digitally identical, there is no way they could sound different. Everything else would be magic, and I do not believe in magic. :-)

    I cannot prove 100% that 1) is wrong, though I strongly suspect it is, for the reasons stated.

    3) probably depends on how we define 'mastering', but I guess you're right.

    5) I mostly agree, except that good headphones are much better than bad speakers. :-)

    6) Nice consensus!!! :-D

    I wish you all a great day, enjoy the Sabbath!

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