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  1. #41
    OzzyIsDio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Sabbath Historian View Post
    To be fair OID, doing a solo album doesn't necessarily mean that one is pursuing a solo career.
    Hope you’re well Sab Historian, it takes time away from the band and if he’s successful you can bet he won’t be around the band for long.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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  2. #42
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    back in the early days Tony and Geezer who are pretty reserved quiet by nature, were drinking doing drugs and weren't the best communicators by any stretch. RJD has a very big ego not that that itself is a bad thing, and he was drinker and drug user himself. I think it was natural for RJD to eventually become the "spokesman" even "leader" as far as public relations back in the day. I think the real story is buried somewhere, but obviously, Geezer and Tony felt Dio was getting too big for his boots. Later years, Geezer and RJD became very close... in public Tony too but Tony and RJD were never "best buddies", more professional working mates than good friends.. mutual respect was more like it. Over the years I've seen Tony mature and become quite elegant in conversation, something he wasn't so much in the earlier days. He did have his time when the coke and reputation of the band got a little too big in his head too.
    "Music is so sacred to me that I canít hear wishy-washy nonsense just played for the sake of selling records."
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    back in the early days Tony and Geezer who are pretty reserved quiet by nature, were drinking doing drugs and weren't the best communicators by any stretch. RJD has a very big ego not that that itself is a bad thing, and he was drinker and drug user himself. I think it was natural for RJD to eventually become the "spokesman" even "leader" as far as public relations back in the day. I think the real story is buried somewhere, but obviously, Geezer and Tony felt Dio was getting too big for his boots. Later years, Geezer and RJD became very close... in public Tony too but Tony and RJD were never "best buddies", more professional working mates than good friends.. mutual respect was more like it. Over the years I've seen Tony mature and become quite elegant in conversation, something he wasn't so much in the earlier days. He did have his time when the coke and reputation of the band got a little too big in his head too.
    Some good points, for sure.

    David Stone, man. The more I think of it it's flat-out comical that he would use the term "us musicians ..." and then talk about Sabbath's "Dog & Pony show." This guy cites Deep Purple as like these consummate musicians (though he is referencing Mark II), when just a few years prior to him joining Rainbow, Purple refused to appear at Cal Jam until it was dark, had explosions and pyrotechnics all over the place, his buddy Blackmore wouldn't go on and then did his Pete Townshend routine on a cameraman. Sabbath, by contrast, appeared in the day, had no lights, went out and played their music and, according to the promoter of the festival who had done hundreds of concerts, put on the greatest performance he had ever witnessed.

    Oh, and let us not forget that when he was in Rainbow, they had to haul around a fifty foot high multi-lighted "rainbow" to their shows.

    Stone should have paid attention to his old friend Ronnie, who cited Geezer Butler as not only the best bassist he'd ever worked with but the greatest rock bassist of all time. And who of course could have told him plenty about Tony's mind numbing abilities as well.

    His storyline is also suspect. Never has anything ever put forth suggested that Dio was still in Rainbow when the Sabbath call came through. And in fact this interview is the very first time I've heard the name "David Stone" used in relation to Sabbath. But if he had a chance to be in Sabbath?

    What a fuckin' tool.
    Last edited by Jeff; 12-10-2017 at 03:41 PM.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
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  4. #44
    Axe fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    Over the years I've seen Tony mature and become quite elegant in conversation, something he wasn't so much in the earlier days. He did have his time when the coke and reputation of the band got a little too big in his head too.
    I remember back in the 80's when I was a teenager, starting guitar and getting into Sabbath, wondering what Tony's voice even sounded like, Back then (before internet) it seemed we'd never hear him talk. I think the whole Seventh Star period forced him into coming out of his shell, doing interviews and being "The front figure and all that".
    We donít see things as they are; we see them as we are.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe fiend View Post
    I remember back in the 80's when I was a teenager, starting guitar and getting into Sabbath, wondering what Tony's voice even sounded like, Back then (before internet) it seemed we'd never hear him talk. I think the whole Seventh Star period forced him into coming out of his shell, doing interviews and being "The front figure and all that".
    Tony was on the radio quite a bit during the Dio-era. Sabbath did Rockline with all four members in 1981, Tony did "Off The Record" with Mary Turner in 1980, and they also did plenty of local radio interviews. Dio did more than his share, for sure, but Tony was not invisible. Not like it is today, of course, and you probably have a point about the Seventh Star-era forcing him to do even more, but he was out there. I think there's like about a 80 minute compilation of radio interviews with Tony out there just from 1980-1982!

    Sabbath also did Jim Ladd's Innerview show in '76. This was nationally syndicated radio show in the US and probably nearly every rock station carried it. Sabbath appeared with all four member when TE was released.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Some good points, for sure.

    David Palmer, man. The more I think of it it's flat-out comical that he would use the term "us musicians ..." and then talk about Sabbath's "Dog & Pony show." This guy cites Deep Purple as like these consummate musicians (though he is referencing Mark II), when just a few years prior to him joining Rainbow, Purple refused to appear at Cal Jam until it was dark, had explosions and pyrotechnics all over the place, his buddy Blackmore wouldn't go on and then did his Pete Townshend routine on a cameraman. Sabbath, by contrast, appeared in the day, had no lights, went out and played their music and, according to the promoter of the festival who had done hundreds of concerts, put on the greatest performance he had ever witnessed.

    Oh, and let us not forget that when he was in Rainbow, they had to haul around a fifty foot high multi-lighted "rainbow" to their shows.

    Palmer should have paid attention to his old friend Ronnie, who cited Geezer Butler as not only the best bassist he'd ever worked with but the greatest rock bassist of all time. And who of course could have told him plenty about Tony's mind numbing abilities as well.

    His storyline is also suspect. Never has anything ever put forth suggested that Dio was still in Rainbow when the Sabbath call came through. And in fact this interview is the very first time I've heard the name "David Palmer" used in relation to Sabbath. But if he had a chance to be in Sabbath?

    What a fuckin' tool.
    This David Palmer of Jethro Tull?
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyIsDio View Post
    This David Palmer of Jethro Tull?
    David Stone, I meant.

    I'll fix it.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicked Cricket View Post
    back in the early days Tony and Geezer who are pretty reserved quiet by nature, were drinking doing drugs and weren't the best communicators by any stretch. RJD has a very big ego not that that itself is a bad thing, and he was drinker and drug user himself. I think it was natural for RJD to eventually become the "spokesman" even "leader" as far as public relations back in the day. I think the real story is buried somewhere, but obviously, Geezer and Tony felt Dio was getting too big for his boots. Later years, Geezer and RJD became very close... in public Tony too but Tony and RJD were never "best buddies", more professional working mates than good friends.. mutual respect was more like it. Over the years I've seen Tony mature and become quite elegant in conversation, something he wasn't so much in the earlier days. He did have his time when the coke and reputation of the band got a little too big in his head too.
    Tony and Dio became very close during TDYK it seems

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I think it can be said in fairness that Ronnie could get very angry and say things that he would later see differently or at least be at peace with. Most of us have probably done the same.

    He has said far worse things about Ritchie Blackmore than Tony or Geezer, and yet in this interview he seems to suggest that he and Blackmore never had problems of the kind he was having with Tony and Geezer.

    No matter whose "fault" it was, Sabbath Mark II blew it, IMO. They had something truly special going. And had they continued, the band would have eventually been held in regard that was commensurate with the original band. Not that they are far from that, but they could have been there in full, even if reunions with Ozzy had happened as they have.

    I'm not sure I buy the idea that it was strictly "PR" to put the Live Evil mixing period to rest. And certainly I don't see that as an insult to fans (what?). Instead, I think they realized that certain people were in between their direct communication at that time. That instead of hashing things out there was too much stock put into what someone else said was being said. If they let some blame be put on someone else I suspect it was because they all wanted to let that period go. They knew what they had was absolutely mind blowing. And when they reunited for Dehumanizer I think they had to on some level let bygones be bygones.
    Fantastic post.

    One thing to consider when trying to interpret fall outs in bands is that these are people like the rest of us. Feelings do take over, people say things they might not actually mean. There certainly was a lot of bad blood between Ronnie and Tony/Geez, but who know what actually transpired during the splits? Time tends to gloss over memories, in good and bad. Another example is how the Mk 1 Sabbath has nothing but bad things to say about NSD!, despite it having it's moments. They were going through a really fucking' awful time back then. To us it's all about the end product (music), to the people making it it's a sum of all it took to produce it.

    To me it tells a lot about the real relationship between the Mk II Sabbath too how their last reunion played out. During their senior years they had learned to leave their egos aside and ended on a high note as friends. And it makes me incredibly glad, Sabbath Mk II was one of the greatest rock bands of all time.
    "The consequence of conscience/Is that you'll be left somewhere/Swinging in the air"-Ronnie James Dio (1942-2010) R.I.P. King Of Metal
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  10. #50
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    My guess is that Stone was judging a book by its cover when he was talking about Sabbath, not really familiar with their stuff and not wanting to get familiar with their stuff. He was in his early 20s, had just gotten burned out after a year of hard touring with an international act, and was getting in over his head with drugs and stuff.

    I mean, he thought a deal with Max Webster would be better than Black Sabbath, money-wise. Kid was just out of his league.

  11. #51

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    Okay, let's get some perspective on this from not long after the debacle happened. I have a magazine with an August 1983 cover date which features an interview with Ronnie. At one point, Ronnie states that:

    "They (Tony and Geezer) have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I (Ronnie) wouldn't get there until 11 in the evening - and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should bet an interview with Lee DeCarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but but he could attest to the fact that I was there at 2 in the afternoon and they would show up at 11 pm and stay for 15 minutes."

    I bolded the 1st part of one sentence above as it states on the back cover of Live Evil that Tony and Geezer produced the album. I also have a June 1983 Hit Parader Sabbath article within which Geezer states that mixing the album became a difficult situation as Ronnie would listen to a song mix then say that he thinks the vocals should be more upfront. Geezer then states that Sabbath has always been a guitar band and that Tony and him (Geezer) would be damned if they'd make the vocals more prominent than the guitar (on the album). Geezer then states that when Ronnie couldn't put up with that.,Tony and him (Geezer) realized that they'd reached an impasse which could only be resolved one way (presumably by 'firing' Ronnie from the band).

    Geezer doesn't state anything about him and Tony and Ronnie and Vinnie being in the studio at separate times during the mixing of the album, but maybe either he was trying to simplify his explanation or that part of it was edited out.

    Regarding 'the Engineer being drunk in the studio' explanation, I think that story was concocted during the reunion for the Dehumanizer album and tour as the 4 of them were reunited and therefore didn't want to blame each other at the time.

    Ted

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Sallis View Post
    Okay, let's get some perspective on this from not long after the debacle happened. I have a magazine with an August 1983 cover date which features an interview with Ronnie. At one point, Ronnie states that:

    "They (Tony and Geezer) have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I (Ronnie) wouldn't get there until 11 in the evening - and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should bet an interview with Lee DeCarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but but he could attest to the fact that I was there at 2 in the afternoon and they would show up at 11 pm and stay for 15 minutes."

    I bolded the 1st part of one sentence above as it states on the back cover of Live Evil that Tony and Geezer produced the album. I also have a June 1983 Hit Parader Sabbath article within which Geezer states that mixing the album became a difficult situation as Ronnie would listen to a song mix then say that he thinks the vocals should be more upfront. Geezer then states that Sabbath has always been a guitar band and that Tony and him (Geezer) would be damned if they'd make the vocals more prominent than the guitar (on the album). Geezer then states that when Ronnie couldn't put up with that.,Tony and him (Geezer) realized that they'd reached an impasse which could only be resolved one way (presumably by 'firing' Ronnie from the band).

    Geezer doesn't state anything about him and Tony and Ronnie and Vinny being in the studio at separate times during the mixing of the album, but maybe either he was trying to simplify his explanation or that part of it was edited out.

    Regarding 'the Engineer being drunk in the studio' explanation, I think that story was concocted during the reunion for the Dehumanizer album and tour as the 4 of them were reunited and therefore didn't want to blame each other at the time.

    Ted
    To your last point Ted, YES, they chose once again to pass the buck, relinquish responsibility, and blame De Carlo instead. Par for the course for members of Black Sabbath as we've seen for DECADES(). But I digress.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Sallis View Post
    Okay, let's get some perspective on this from not long after the debacle happened. I have a magazine with an August 1983 cover date which features an interview with Ronnie. At one point, Ronnie states that:

    "They (Tony and Geezer) have said they would go into the studio early in the day and that I (Ronnie) wouldn't get there until 11 in the evening - and while they were gone I would turn up the vocals in the mix. Maybe you should bet an interview with Lee DeCarlo, who was the engineer, but he would probably be afraid to tell you anything. He actually produced the album anyways, but but he could attest to the fact that I was there at 2 in the afternoon and they would show up at 11 pm and stay for 15 minutes."

    I bolded the 1st part of one sentence above as it states on the back cover of Live Evil that Tony and Geezer produced the album. I also have a June 1983 Hit Parader Sabbath article within which Geezer states that mixing the album became a difficult situation as Ronnie would listen to a song mix then say that he thinks the vocals should be more upfront. Geezer then states that Sabbath has always been a guitar band and that Tony and him (Geezer) would be damned if they'd make the vocals more prominent than the guitar (on the album). Geezer then states that when Ronnie couldn't put up with that.,Tony and him (Geezer) realized that they'd reached an impasse which could only be resolved one way (presumably by 'firing' Ronnie from the band).

    Geezer doesn't state anything about him and Tony and Ronnie and Vinnie being in the studio at separate times during the mixing of the album, but maybe either he was trying to simplify his explanation or that part of it was edited out.

    Regarding 'the Engineer being drunk in the studio' explanation, I think that story was concocted during the reunion for the Dehumanizer album and tour as the 4 of them were reunited and therefore didn't want to blame each other at the time.

    Ted
    Great post, thank you!

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbabbath View Post
    Great post, thank you!
    You're welcome and thank you for the compliment.

    A Sabbath Historian wrote: To your last point Ted, YES, they chose once again to pass the buck, relinquish responsibility, and blame De Carlo instead. Par for the course for members of Black Sabbath as we've seen for DECADES(). But I digress.

    Yes, passing blame is nothing new with Sabbath.

    Ted

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe fiend View Post
    I remember back in the 80's when I was a teenager, starting guitar and getting into Sabbath, wondering what Tony's voice even sounded like, Back then (before internet) it seemed we'd never hear him talk. I think the whole Seventh Star period forced him into coming out of his shell, doing interviews and being "The front figure and all that".
    I have a radio interview with Tony from around when the Born Again Tour came to my city n 1983; he was quite informative during that. Also, on the Heaven and Hell (Band) concert DVD, Ronnie states during his interview segment that both Tony and Bill were quite outgoing (toward Ronnie) when he 1st met them when he joined the band in 1979 and that it was Geezer who was reserved at first but then opened up more later on.

    Ted

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Sallis View Post
    I have a radio interview with Tony from around when the Born Again Tour came to my city n 1983; he was quite informative during that. Also, on the Heaven and Hell (Band) concert DVD, Ronnie states during his interview segment that both Tony and Bill were quite outgoing (toward Ronnie) when he 1st met them when he joined the band in 1979 and that it was Geezer who was reserved at first but then opened up more later on.

    Ted
    So obviously my experience wasn't based on any fact, it was just MY experience. Cheers Ted.
    We donít see things as they are; we see them as we are.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe fiend View Post
    So obviously my experience wasn't based on any fact, it was just MY experience. Cheers Ted.
    No, based on your previous post that I quoted just above, it appears you didn't experience hearing Tony talk pre-Seventh Star 'Era' whereas others here and I did.

    Ted

  18. #58
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    GREAT discussion here, kudos to all who have added bits and pieces to it, the composite is great reading for those interested in this caustic point in the history of Black Sabbath.

    I’m also glad that the possible impact of Ronnie’s solo aspirations are being dissected. I remember an interview that Ronnie gave while he was still in Sabbath in 1982 about defending his then in-production solo album and that it was not an indicator that his time in Sabbath was ending and he listed examples of other current bands who had members put out solo stuff on the side and the band was not affected. (I want to say Kiss and Genesis were his examples but I’m strictly going off a 35 year memory now).

    I do remember that Ronnie made it seem that Tony and Geezer were on-board and supportive of him and that Sabbath was still one big happy family. Of course later Geezer appeared insulted when he alleged that Ronnie was using his “best stuff” for his solo album instead of Sabbath. I actually think the song Holy Diver was part of the contention. It is the only song that is credited to Dio solo on the Holy Diver album. It seems likely that it existed in some kind of demo form that Geezer and Tony heard at some point. How would they know it was Ronnie’s “best stuff” without being exposed to it while he was still in the band?

    My God, if Holy Diver had been a Sabbath song, it probably would have been even more bad-ass!
    Last edited by Damian; 12-15-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    My God, if Holy Diver has been a Sabbath song, it probably would have been even more bad-ass!
    What if the whole album had been the Sabbath studio follow-up to Mob Rules?

    But... that would presume that Butler and Iommi would have taken a back seat to Dio in the writing department... would that have been possible? I'm not so sure it would.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    It is the only song that is credited to Dio solo on the Holy Diver album. It seems likely that it existed in some kind of demo form that Geezer and Tony heard at some point. How would they know it was Ronnie’s “best stuff” without being exposed to it while he was still in the band?

    My God, if Holy Diver has been a Sabbath song, it probably would have been even more bad-ass!
    The riff rhythm in the song Holy Diver is stolen from the bass riff in the song Heaven and Hell.
    Last edited by Kennyz; 12-15-2017 at 01:46 PM.

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennyz View Post
    The riff rhythm in the song Holy Diver is stolen from the bass riff in the song Heaven and Hell.
    |————————————————————————————————————————————————— —————7h9————————
    |————————————————————————————————————————————————— —7h9————————————
    |—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7—7——7—7 ————————————————
    |————————————————————————————————————————————————— ————————————————

    Is that really stealing? I guess tapping your foot to music is stealing from Morse Code then, as well!

    I think the fact that Holy Diver could have appeared in a Sabbath follow up to Mob Rules without raising many eyebrows at least sets the table that Holy Diver, the song, might have been among the "best stuff" that Geezer was insulted that Ronnie was keeping for his solo work. Again, as I stated, it was a song completely credited to Dio himself, which lends to it likely not being written in an environment of new band mates, because it already existed by that point.

    The input of Bain and Campbell made much of the rest of the Holy Diver album sound decidedly NOT like Sabbath. We were lucky to get four studio albums from the Mach II lineup, just like we were with the entire Ozzy Era, and to wistfully think of "what could have been" also takes away the amazing solo work from both Ozzy and Ronnie. And the end of the day, I think the fans have been handsomely rewarded over the years.
    Last edited by Damian; 12-15-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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  22. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    ...he listed examples of other current bands who had members put out solo stuff on the side and the band was not affected. (I want to say Kiss and Genesis were his examples but I’m strictly going off a 35 year memory now).
    If your memory is correct regarding KISS at least, 50% of the original lineup of that band were no longer in the group by 1982 so it wouldn't have been accurate for Dio to use them as an example.

    Insofar as Dio's solo aspirations may have helped precipitate his exit from Sabbath, I also think it's unfortunate that he couldn't have remained with them while also recording then releasing the Holy Diver album. As for the what if HD was a Black Sabbath album, that's an intriguing thought...

    Ted

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Sallis View Post
    If your memory is correct regarding KISS at least, 50% of the original lineup of that band were no longer in the group by 1982 so it wouldn't have been accurate for Dio to use them as an example.

    Insofar as Dio's solo aspirations may have helped precipitate his exit from Sabbath, I also think it's unfortunate that he couldn't have remained with them while also recording then releasing the Holy Diver album. As for the what if HD was a Black Sabbath album, that's an intriguing thought...

    Ted
    Maybe someone here can dig up the interview, in either Hit Parader, Cream, RIP, or some other periodical from that specific time frame when Ronnie was still in Sabbath, but after the recording of Mob Rules. He definitely used other bands as examples of successful solo/band combinations while explaining the process of his solo album. As I said above, not sure now who those groups were. What was clear is that Dio made it seem as though the rest of the band were ok with his solo venture. And that he was already working on what would become the Holy Diver album before leaving Sabbath. How things went south from there is, and will continue to be, debatable.

    Looking back on it, I think Ronnie made a mistake. I think that he wanted to go solo right after he left Rainbow and by the time he started actually working on what would be Holy Diver, I think he was trying to keep Sabbath as a "plan b" if his solo act did not make a dent. If he had made a clean break it would have been better all around, even though doing so would be putting all of his eggs in a very untested basket. Then future reunions could not only have still happened, but may have come together sooner, and stayed longer. 1986 would have been a great time for Tony, who was forced into using the Sabbath name with all-new bandmates, and Ronnie, who had just about burned out his own solo Mach I lineup, to reunite again. If they had been on better terms, more like how it was between Ian Gillian and Sabbath when the Deep Purple reunion came about (in which Gillian was upfront and honest about its possibility and priority from day one) then such an alliance could have been struck with maybe a simple phone call.

    There were also other stresses in Live Evil's mixing studio. Tony and Geezer already knew that Ozzy was planning to put out his own live album of classic Black Sabbath songs, with 6 Sabbath tunes found on both releases, and the race was on as to which camp could get their work released first.
    Speak of the Devil won the race, dropping a month before Live Evil and satisfying a large group of fans hungry for live Sabbath songs, and it demolished Live Evil in sales. At some point during post-production of Live Evil, maybe around the time Ronnie left, it became known among Sabbath that there was no way Live Evil could get finished in time to beat Speak of the Devil to market, and that fact probably did not add optimism to the project.

    I agree with those who have posted that this stretch of the Black Sabbath timeline is among the most remarkable for so many different reasons and factors!
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  24. #64
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    My sabbath culture is surely not exhaustive like some members here but from my window I can not imagine putting the mighty Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Holy Diver in the same league. There are only 2 masterpieces and Tony Iommi plays on it. Personally, I can't rate Holy Diver as a possible version of a successor to Mob Rules. I have never been able to appreciate this record because of this weak and dry sound, without heavy bass. Draw your guns: Born Again and Seventh Star give me more pleasure.
    Regarding the HH vs HD main bass riff, the similarity is clear, Morse code or not. When I first listened to the HD title track with my brother in '83, we had the same reaction "oh! He steals that to BS" We talked about Gruber or Nicholls about this bass line. Did Gruber already work with DIo on a solo project before the Heaven and Hell sessions? the great Geoff sure not. Nobody will know it and this belongs to the world of suppositions.

    "Ritchie was a gentleman"? I can not find this interview I read some time ago from Roger Glover who arrived in Rainbow before Roninie's departure (if I remember correctly) who explained that he was shuttling between the Ronnie's house and Ritchie's place during sometimes, these two legends refusing to speak to each other except by intermediary person. Egocentrism can cause holes In Memory ...
    great debate here.

  25. #65
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    Maybe someone here can dig up the interview, in either Hit Parader, Cream, RIP, or some other periodical from that specific time frame when Ronnie was still in Sabbath, but after the recording of Mob Rules. He definitely used other bands as examples of successful solo/band combinations while explaining the process of his solo album. As I said above, not sure now who those groups were. What was clear is that Dio made it seem as though the rest of the band were ok with his solo venture. And that he was already working on what would become the Holy Diver album before leaving Sabbath. How things went south from there is, and will continue to be, debatable.

    Looking back on it, I think Ronnie made a mistake. I think that he wanted to go solo right after he left Rainbow and by the time he started actually working on what would be Holy Diver, I think he was trying to keep Sabbath as a "plan b" if his solo act did not make a dent. If he had made a clean break it would have been better all around, even though doing so would be putting all of his eggs in a very untested basket. Then future reunions could not only have still happened, but may have come together sooner, and stayed longer. 1986 would have been a great time for Tony, who was forced into using the Sabbath name with all-new bandmates, and Ronnie, who had just about burned out his own solo Mach I lineup, to reunite again. If they had been on better terms, more like how it was between Ian Gillian and Sabbath when the Deep Purple reunion came about (in which Gillian was upfront and honest about its possibility and priority from day one) then such an alliance could have been struck with maybe a simple phone call.

    There were also other stresses in Live Evil's mixing studio. Tony and Geezer already knew that Ozzy was planning to put out his own live album of classic Black Sabbath songs, with 6 Sabbath tunes found on both releases, and the race was on as to which camp could get their work released first.
    Speak of the Devil won the race, dropping a month before Live Evil and satisfying a large group of fans hungry for live Sabbath songs, and it demolished Live Evil in sales. At some point during post-production of Live Evil, maybe around the time Ronnie left, it became known among Sabbath that there was no way Live Evil could get finished in time to beat Speak of the Devil to market, and that fact probably did not add optimism to the project.

    I agree with those who have posted that this stretch of the Black Sabbath timeline is among the most remarkable for so many different reasons and factors!
    Excellent points Damian, btw nice to see you or hear from you. Like you stated in your previous post, I think as fans we got pretty much everything we wanted in the end..no pun intended. H&H the band... and Sabbath reunited with a new album, and ending their career on a world wide mostly sold out tour! After all is said and done, the Sabbath timeline rest on a solid Rock, aka Tony Iommi.
    Last edited by Wicked Cricket; 12-16-2017 at 04:15 PM.
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  26. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYR66 View Post
    My sabbath culture is surely not exhaustive like some members here but from my window I can not imagine putting the mighty Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Holy Diver in the same league. There are only 2 masterpieces and Tony Iommi plays on it. Personally, I can't rate Holy Diver as a possible version of a successor to Mob Rules. I have never been able to appreciate this record because of this weak and dry sound, without heavy bass.
    I completely agree. I appreciated it when it came out, but Holy Diver just hasn't aged all that well for me. In addition to the production, I just don't find Vivian Campbell to be all that convincing as a rhythm player. The whole band just seems kind of forced together and not truly cohesive. Dio sings his lungs out, however.
    "It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
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  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian View Post
    1986 would have been a great time for Tony, who was forced into using the Sabbath name with all-new bandmates, and Ronnie, who had just about burned out his own solo Mach I lineup, to reunite again.
    An excellent lengthy post by Damian above! I've quoted a small portion of it which I don't think I've ever considered before, but I can't possibly think of a better year within which Tony and Ronnie could have gotten back together again than 1986 as Damian suggested, since instead of getting the complete debacle of an album called Seventh Star that year, we could have gotten an infinitely better album with an infinitely better vocalist IMHO completely worthy of being released under the Black Sabbath name.

    Then, assuming Tony and Ronnie stayed together, we could have gotten subsequent completely authentic Sabbath albums (and tours) which would put the pseudo-Sabbath albums released between 1987 and 1990 (featuring another hugely inferior vocalist) to shame.

    Ted

  28. #68

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    They must of let Jr. High out early for CHRISTmas break .... what can you do , just try to entertain them ....

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BACK TO EDEN View Post
    They must of let Jr. High out early for CHRISTmas break .... what can you do , just try to entertain them ....
    \m/

  30. #70

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    The facts can be a difficult beast for some people to accept. It's simply too much of a burden for them.

    Ted

  31. #71
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    ya but don't be so hard on yourself

    ronn

  32. #72

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    You should have pleaded the 5th Amendment instead of posting a reply like that.

    Ted

  33. #73
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    Could be worse, just imagine listening to Don't Stop Me Now by Queen

    ronn

  34. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronn View Post
    Could be worse, just imagine listening to Don't Stop Me Now by Queen

    ronn
    ? I've always liked that song; I don't know why you are using it to compare to something Sabbath has put out.

    Ted

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronn View Post
    Could be worse, just imagine listening to Don't Stop Me Now by Queen

    ronn
    That song is pure life, I love that song. Doesn't really enter into my "could be worse" calculations.

  36. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Sallis View Post
    If your memory is correct regarding KISS at least, 50% of the original lineup of that band were no longer in the group by 1982 so it wouldn't have been accurate for Dio to use them as an example.
    If he did mentioned KISS, perhaps he was referring to when each member released a solo album in 1978.
    "I've seen the future and I've left it behind"

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