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Thread: "13" or TDYK?

  1. #1
    Wicked Cricket's Avatar
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    Default "13" or TDYK?

    I think we've had polls on which and who prefers what I think TDYK is the better of 2 great albums, its a lot heavier there's some great songs on that album it has the better definitive song "Bible Black" vs "God Is Dead..." wadda ya thunk
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    Great question. Some days I prefer 13 and others I prefer The Devil You Know. I feel that some of the riffs on tdyk seem more “classic”. But really, it’s a toss up for sure. My opinion will change daily on this one.


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  3. #3

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    I think TDYK was an excellent addition to the Dio era. I rate it substantially higher than Dehumanizer. Bible Black is the highlight of the album. For me, 13 successfully recreated the sound and vibe of the early days of Black Sabbath, with several new classics. The heaviness and gloom of this early Ozzy era is unrivaled in my rankings.

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    Both albums are great Sabbath albums, I’ll go with 13 as the better album and the one I prefer.

    God Is Dead? true Sabbath classic sound.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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    I'm an Ozzy era guy first and foremost but TDYK is far superior in my opinion.
    Bible Black and Follow The Tears stand shoulder to shoulder with the best songs that lineup did together.

    Nothing on 13 comes close to what that lineup did before, even the 2 tracks from reunion are better.

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    Ozzy Sabbath will always be better than Dio Sabbath for one reason and one reason only: Introspection. Ozzy's Sabbath Sandbox is one of introspection, existentialism and human condition.

    Dio's Sabbath is always one of Fantasy, Ego, and Esoteric symbolism.

    Therefore Ozzy's work is more direct and personal, personable and relatable.

    No matter how great of a singer Dio is, no matter how grandiose his subjects, lyrics and point-of-view...it can never equate the value of the Ozzy material.

    That includes 13 vs TDYK

    "Fear" is one of the greatest riffs of all time. It is sick as hell. "Eating the Cannibals" is a very fresh riff. TDYK is chock full of great riffage and Dio sounds more interesting in his aged, weaker state...a little sinister....a little spooky.

    But "God Is Dead?" is maybe a perfect song. The kind that just don't happen anymore. "Methademic" is a slaughterhouse of a song. "Live Forever" is classic Sabbath with clever lyrics.

    13 managed to be relevant while TDYK kind of forwarded the status quo a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
    Ozzy Sabbath will always be better than Dio Sabbath for one reason and one reason only: Introspection. Ozzy's Sabbath Sandbox is one of introspection, existentialism and human condition.

    Dio's Sabbath is always one of Fantasy, Ego, and Esoteric symbolism.

    Therefore Ozzy's work is more direct and personal, personable and relatable.

    No matter how great of a singer Dio is, no matter how grandiose his subjects, lyrics and point-of-view...it can never equate the value of the Ozzy material.

    That includes 13 vs TDYK

    "Fear" is one of the greatest riffs of all time. It is sick as hell. "Eating the Cannibals" is a very fresh riff. TDYK is chock full of great riffage and Dio sounds more interesting in his aged, weaker state...a little sinister....a little spooky.

    But "God Is Dead?" is maybe a perfect song. The kind that just don't happen anymore. "Methademic" is a slaughterhouse of a song. "Live Forever" is classic Sabbath with clever lyrics.

    13 managed to be relevant while TDYK kind of forwarded the status quo a bit.
    Great post William, and glad you love God Is Dead?
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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  10. #9

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    I prefer The Devil You Know over 13 by a slight margin. Ultimately, the best material on the former is stronger than the best of the latter, to my ears.

    I agree with W_T_B regarding Fear, easily that album's best track. And frankly, I think it's better than anything on 13.

    The Devil You Know gets a 3.5 while 13 is a solid three (on a five-star scale).

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    I really need to listen to 'The Devil You Know' a bit more. I don't own it, but perhaps I should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiem View Post
    I really need to listen to 'The Devil You Know' a bit more. I don't own it, but perhaps I should.

    You should get it Requiem, you won't be disappointed.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
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  13. #12

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    The Devil You Know by a country mile.

    13 sounds too contrived. Some songs sound like blatant rewrites of older, superior riffs/ideas. I don’t think genuine inspiration happens that way.

    TDYK is the sound of four guys free to create whatever they want, not trying to capture past glories and not weighed down by the baggage and expectations that come with a brand name like Black Sabbath.

    Oh, and it has better songs too. lol

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Towelie View Post
    The Devil You Know by a country mile.

    13 sounds too contrived. Some songs sound like blatant rewrites of older, superior riffs/ideas. I don’t think genuine inspiration happens that way.

    TDYK is the sound of four guys free to create whatever they want, not trying to capture past glories and not weighed down by the baggage and expectations that come with a brand name like Black Sabbath.

    Oh, and it has better songs too. lol
    There is a lot of weight in this point of view too. Contrived, yes. However...the three tracks I mentioned from 13 I think escape that conclusion fairly well. GID? has a bit of "Hole In the Sky" but it's mostly the swing of it and not the actual notes.

    I can find 3 great tracks off of either album that defy criticism, IMO. BB, F, and EtC from TDYK and GID?, METH and LF off of 13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
    There is a lot of weight in this point of view too. Contrived, yes. However...the three tracks I mentioned from 13 I think escape that conclusion fairly well. GID? has a bit of "Hole In the Sky" but it's mostly the swing of it and not the actual notes.

    I can find 3 great tracks off of either album that defy criticism, IMO. BB, F, and EtC from TDYK and GID?, METH and LF off of 13.
    I dunno... I kind of feel as if GID? is actually the perfect example of all that is wrong with 13. Even though I quite like it, it feels very blatant to me. As if Rick Rubin came into the studio with a massive boner to be producing the guys who made War Pigs, and tried his best to get them to ape that sound as much as they could. Sabbath were never ones to repeat themselves, especially in those early days, where each of those first six Ozzy albums were such a radical departure from the last.

    With 13, they are almost following a blueprint of Paranoid. Could Zeitgeist want to be Planet Caravan any harder? Loner and Pariah are going for that NIB structure. It's so read through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Towelie View Post
    I dunno... I kind of feel as if GID? is actually the perfect example of all that is wrong with 13. Even though I quite like it, it feels very blatant to me. As if Rick Rubin came into the studio with a massive boner to be producing the guys who made War Pigs, and tried his best to get them to ape that sound as much as they could. Sabbath were never ones to repeat themselves, especially in those early days, where each of those first six Ozzy albums were such a radical departure from the last.

    With 13, they are almost following a blueprint of Paranoid. Could Zeitgeist want to be Planet Caravan any harder? Loner and Pariah are going for that NIB structure. It's so read through.
    It's that exact reason why "13" , all 16 tracks , is such a tremendous album .... they did what they never did before , recorded an album to sound like the "past" - and they accomplished this goal with such dominance , it makes you smile with great satisfaction while enjoying the music.


    .... and TDYK is fantastic.

  17. #16
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    Fear or Damaged Soul could be in a set right with HnH or Iron Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Towelie View Post
    I dunno... I kind of feel as if GID? is actually the perfect example of all that is wrong with 13. Even though I quite like it, it feels very blatant to me. As if Rick Rubin came into the studio with a massive boner to be producing the guys who made War Pigs, and tried his best to get them to ape that sound as much as they could. Sabbath were never ones to repeat themselves, especially in those early days, where each of those first six Ozzy albums were such a radical departure from the last.

    With 13, they are almost following a blueprint of Paranoid. Could Zeitgeist want to be Planet Caravan any harder? Loner and Pariah are going for that NIB structure. It's so read through.
    One could argue that MOR followed Paranoid's blueprint pretty closely, where "Solitude" is a take on "Planet Caravan"

    I think the idea that "13" was going to leap off of "Never Say Die" and be progressive from that point of development is a non-starter, primarily since Ward was not involved and therefore song structure would be bound to more "Modern" style beats or the drum-machine model coupled with Ozzy's reduced ability to sing and all that married to "They just don't record like that anymore" call it a lack of Dave Grohl's Fleetwood Mac board or Digital process in general...

    But I tend to blame gear itself. After Iommi decided to throw away the solid state rack unit after "Forbidden" and try to rebuild his "classic" sound... all of his custom pickups and rewired stomps and recombobulated heads and cabinets...at a certain point if you want to really recreate your classic sound you need to throw everything in the bin and go to Guitar Center and just go off-the-shelf, you know?

    It starts to be like a photographer who does too much in photoshop.

    Geezer is guilty of this too. At some point he decided he needs to really be out there in the mix, so he dials up hard on the high end of the bass so you hear every rattle and hum and it just didn't used to be like that. Without Ward to play off of, the Bass stands out more than ever and that's not what we're used to.

    Ozzy too processed and too crisp and present and the fashion of trying VERY VERY HARD not to sound double/triple tracked when in the 70's being a bit sloppy with it sounded awesome and fuller...

    Even with all that going against it, 13 survived and there's some great tracks.

    But you know, it's weird, in my head it just isn't Black Sabbath the way The X-Files movies aren't part of the series.

    In fact, I think that's maybe the most profound metaphor for the problem with 13 I've heard.

    13 is an asterisk, not an album.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
    One could argue that MOR followed Paranoid's blueprint pretty closely, where "Solitude" is a take on "Planet Caravan"

    I think the idea that "13" was going to leap off of "Never Say Die" and be progressive from that point of development is a non-starter, primarily since Ward was not involved and therefore song structure would be bound to more "Modern" style beats or the drum-machine model coupled with Ozzy's reduced ability to sing and all that married to "They just don't record like that anymore" call it a lack of Dave Grohl's Fleetwood Mac board or Digital process in general...

    But I tend to blame gear itself. After Iommi decided to throw away the solid state rack unit after "Forbidden" and try to rebuild his "classic" sound... all of his custom pickups and rewired stomps and recombobulated heads and cabinets...at a certain point if you want to really recreate your classic sound you need to throw everything in the bin and go to Guitar Center and just go off-the-shelf, you know?

    It starts to be like a photographer who does too much in photoshop.

    Geezer is guilty of this too. At some point he decided he needs to really be out there in the mix, so he dials up hard on the high end of the bass so you hear every rattle and hum and it just didn't used to be like that. Without Ward to play off of, the Bass stands out more than ever and that's not what we're used to.

    Ozzy too processed and too crisp and present and the fashion of trying VERY VERY HARD not to sound double/triple tracked when in the 70's being a bit sloppy with it sounded awesome and fuller...

    Even with all that going against it, 13 survived and there's some great tracks.

    But you know, it's weird, in my head it just isn't Black Sabbath the way The X-Files movies aren't part of the series.

    In fact, I think that's maybe the most profound metaphor for the problem with 13 I've heard.

    13 is an asterisk, not an album.
    Interesting thoughts.

    Out of curiosity, would you consider TDYK a Sabbath album?

    I know what you mean about Geezers bass. It doesn't really bother me though, but it depends what they're shooting for. Like on Dehumanizer they were clearly going for a more modern sound and Geezer does some incredible playing on that record, which he could only have dreamed of back in the Ozzy days. Technically speaking, his playing was in a different league.

    But when you're trying to recreate a classic sound, I think it's sometimes hard for a seasoned musician to show the restraint required to come up with stuff reminiscent of the material created when their technical abilities were more basic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Towelie View Post
    Interesting thoughts.

    Out of curiosity, would you consider TDYK a Sabbath album?

    I know what you mean about Geezers bass. It doesn't really bother me though, but it depends what they're shooting for. Like on Dehumanizer they were clearly going for a more modern sound and Geezer does some incredible playing on that record, which he could only have dreamed of back in the Ozzy days. Technically speaking, his playing was in a different league.

    But when you're trying to recreate a classic sound, I think it's sometimes hard for a seasoned musician to show the restraint required to come up with stuff reminiscent of the material created when their technical abilities were more basic.
    It's funny you ask that, because I do actually think of TDYK as a Sabbath album. Why? I think it's because Dio is the underdog, and it *would've* been called Black Sabbath if not for Ozzy/$auron. Musically, it's a bit less "try hard" than 13, more In-the-pocket, more "The Boys doing their thing" and maybe (probably) a whole lot less Rick Rubin?

    I actually like Geezer's bass on 13, especially on GID? it sounds like the wrath of God. My reference to it was only to illustrate how different it is/how hard it is to be "Classic" when they've spent 50 years swimming downstream from it.

    Good call about downgrading increased abilities in order to cater to classic sound. That is a huge factor. It also speaks a bit to the musicians inability (often times) to understand why their fans even like them.

    For example: "Iron Man" is arguably the most recognizable and universally loved Riff of all time, and not just the main riff but the supporting riffs as well. Iommi knows he's the "Riffmaster" but would probably feel like he didn't turn in a full day's work if he just strung together some power chords in E. Yet, we'd probably all love it if he came up with something comparable and uncomplicated. It's what separates Early Sabbath from the "noise" (if you will) of more modern metal. But, you know, everyone said "Psycho Man" was too simplistic, so....

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    Quote Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
    It's funny you ask that, because I do actually think of TDYK as a Sabbath album. Why? I think it's because Dio is the underdog, and it *would've* been called Black Sabbath if not for Ozzy/$auron. Musically, it's a bit less "try hard" than 13, more In-the-pocket, more "The Boys doing their thing" and maybe (probably) a whole lot less Rick Rubin?

    I actually like Geezer's bass on 13, especially on GID? it sounds like the wrath of God. My reference to it was only to illustrate how different it is/how hard it is to be "Classic" when they've spent 50 years swimming downstream from it.

    Good call about downgrading increased abilities in order to cater to classic sound. That is a huge factor. It also speaks a bit to the musicians inability (often times) to understand why their fans even like them.

    For example: "Iron Man" is arguably the most recognizable and universally loved Riff of all time, and not just the main riff but the supporting riffs as well. Iommi knows he's the "Riffmaster" but would probably feel like he didn't turn in a full day's work if he just strung together some power chords in E. Yet, we'd probably all love it if he came up with something comparable and uncomplicated. It's what separates Early Sabbath from the "noise" (if you will) of more modern metal. But, you know, everyone said "Psycho Man" was too simplistic, so....
    Thanks for considering The Devil You Know as Sabbath, William.

    I love both albums to death, If Sabbath would've created something new, let's say something Wardesque, I think it would've been more 70's Sabbath sounding than 13.

    Have you heard Accountable Beasts? That album is so creative and dark, that leaves me thinking if Bill would've continued on 13, it would've been a 100 times better.
    "Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath"
    "If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
    ________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

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