Tony Martin Era Deluxe Editions

Back on June 29, 2009, Universal started releasing Deluxe Editions/remasters of the Black Sabbath catalogue, starting with the original album in 1970.  They worked through the discography, and released all the studio albums up through “The Eternal Idol” (plus Dehumanizer).   The final release in the series was Born Again, which was released on May 30, 2011, and then that’s it.   But as TRUE Black Sabbath fans know, that’s not the end of the story.  There were four more studio albums plus a live album put out under the Black Sabbath banner.  All of them featuring Tony Martin on vocals.   I’ve been getting asked a lot lately what’s up with the Tony Martin era Black Sabbath albums getting Deluxe Editions.   I’ve actually had the answers to this on my website since 2011, but it was buried in the forums on the site.  So that’s why we’re here, to bring this information out front a bit more, and perhaps stop people asking me so much about it.  haha.  No seriously, I always wanted to do this, just never got around to it.   So here goes…

Tony Martin Era

Background Info & Record Label Stuff

Before I get to the Tony Martin stuff in detail, there’s a few background bits I should probably touch on.   As I pointed out in the intro, the existing Deluxe/remaster series from Universal from 2009-2011 covered from Black Sabbath (album) to Eternal Idol.

Back when Black Sabbath signed a record deal back in 1970, it was with Warner Bros in the United States, and Vertigo in UK/Europe/World.    Warner Bros had its own set of masters for the albums, and Vertigo (later Castle, later Universal) had their own set.  Each of the companies could not sell their products in the territory of the other (unless something was licensed).    This original contract ended after 1987, when Tony signed with IRS for Headless Cross.

  • This is why 2004′s Black Box & 2008′s “Rules of Hell” were not sold outside of US/North America.
  • This is why the 2009-2011 Universal Deluxe CD/Remaster series was not sold in US/North America, at least not domestically.

It is also the reason why we see a lot of greatest hits packages, and fans get all bent out of shape about it.  I frequently hear “How many times can the band release that?”   Well, most of the time, the band doesn’t.  It’s a record label thing most of the time.  Lets look at the various compilations (the major ones anyway, I know there’s more)…

  • 1975′s “We Sold Our Soul” – Band sponsored, came out on both Warner & Vertigo
  • 1995′s “Between Heaven & Hell” – Castle, Europe
  • 1996′s “The Sabbath Stones” – IRS, Europe
  • 2002′s “Symptom of the Universe” – Warner, USA
  • 2004′s “Black Box” – Warner, USA
  • 2006′s “Greatest Hits 1970-1978″ – Warner, USA
  • 2007′s “The Dio Years” – Warner/Rhino, USA
  • 2008′s “The Rules of Hell” – Warner/Rhino, USA
  • 2009′s “Greatest Hits” – Universal, Europe
  • 2012′s “Iron Man: Best of Black Sabbath” – Universal, Europe

So when you’re talking about these kinds of releases, you have to take this into account as to why it’s not available in certain places.  At least not domestically.   You can always get things imported, but it’s always more expensive that way.

This is all relevant, because it is the reason why Universal stopped at “The Eternal Idol”.  They didn’t have rights to release the subsequent albums in the catalogue, those being:

  • 1989′s Headless Cross
  • 1990′s Tyr
  • 1994′s Cross Purposes
  • 1995′s Cross Purposes Live
  • 1995′s Forbidden
  • 1996′s The Sabbath Stones

These were all on the IRS contract that Tony Iommi signed for Black Sabbath in 1988, and as far as I know, the rights to these albums reverted to Tony at some point in the years after all these went out of print.    Now technically, 1992′s Dehumanizer was an IRS release as well.  However, Dehumanizer has some special situations.   If you were around when that all happened, Dio was signed to Warner Brothers for the “Dio band” contract.  They apparently needed some coaxing to let Ronnie out of his Dio contract to go back to Black Sabbath.  So to appease Warner, they were given distribution rights to Dehumanizer in the US/North America, and IRS retained rights to Dehumanizer everywhere else.   In 1992, it came out on Warner’s “Reprise” label.   Now I don’t know all the nitty gritty, but it was this “special case” that allowed Dehumanizer to come out in the 2009-2011 Universal remaster series.   I don’t know what the specific contract clause was, but that’s what happened to allow that specific one to come out.

The other IRS albums do not have this, and as such would require a totally new contract to be signed for them to be remastered and re-released.

Yeah OK, what about the Martin albums?

As said above, since the Tony Martin albums were on IRS, it would require Tony Iommi (the rights holder) to sign a new contract with someone (presumably Universal, who have done the other remasters) to re-release these.    One interesting thing – the original IRS deal was world wide.   Now, given this is a new contract (once it would eventually get signed), one doesn’t know what the terms would be now, but….

I was told by someone that a request was made for world wide rights on the new contract to be signed for these, but that was before all the reunion stuff happened and work stopped on this project (more later on that).   So it’s encouraging that this would be a WORLD WIDE release, assuming that still holds up.

There are five albums that this would cover.  They are Headless Cross, Tyr, Cross Purposes, Cross Purposes Live, & Forbidden.  Technically the “Sabbath Stones” compilation is also on IRS, but I’d be SHOCKED if that got re-released.     Let’s look at each of the individual albums, and I’ll comment on them in regards to this.

Before I get to them, I wanted to say that I think Tony Iommi’s manager got tired of me nagging him awhile ago about extras for the IRS/Martin Deluxe albums, and he gave me some contact info for a couple of chaps at Universal, and said I should contact them.  So I did.  We got to talking about several things (including some the DE’s that hadn’t yet come out), and they asked me to submit a list of extras for possible inclusion on the DE’s.  So for each of the albums below, you’ll get what I sent to the label as possible extras.  Doesn’t mean they’ll happen, but it was my suggestion.

Headless Cross

Black Sabbath’s 1989 album was the first one to feature Cozy Powell on drums, and the first Black Sabbath album ever since 1970 to be on a different record label.    For me personally, this one needs the remaster the most.  The CD mastering I have has a flat underpowered sound.   It’s not like it’s awful, but if you compare it to other output, and especially things that have been remastered, it definitely shows its age and production.

I’m told this will get a remaster.   Now, what’s available for bonus material?

  1. Studio track “Cloak & Dagger”.  Was a B side to the “Headless Cross” single, and also appeared on a picture disc version of the HC album.
  2. “Headless Cross” radio edit.  This was a shorter version of the title track for radio play.
  3. An EPK that Iommi & Powell did to sort of “re-introduce” the band.  It’s video though, so you might not want to use it, but it could be put on there as audio only.
  4. Music Video: Headless Cross
  5. The Devil & Daughter LP single had an interview with the band, this could be used.
  6. Russian live tracks.  There’s an interesting story behind these that Neil Murray told awhile ago when I had asked him about Sabbath playing the old Shadows song “Apache” during the gigs. If you can get a hold of all this (was filmed on video, too) it’d be one hell of an extra! Here’s the story:“We only performed Apache on the 2 shows that were recorded on one day in Moscow. It was supposed to be a throwaway track to be played while 24-track tapes were changed over for the live recording. From what I understood at the time, the recording would be under our control as far as mixing & editing goes. However, security guards prevented anyone from our crew entering the recording truck after the show, and instead of the band and record company taking possession of the master tapes, some Russian organisation (basically the Mafia) disappeared with them. I assume the concert was released in Russia etc, but I doubt if any money was ever paid to Black Sabbath. The Shadows, whose song Apache is, was a huge influence on myself, Tony Iommi, Cozy, Brian May and many other UK musicians of around my age – they were the biggest UK band before the Beatles came along.”

NOTES:

  • The song “Call of the Wild” was originally called “Hero”. The name was changed due to Ozzy putting out a song called Hero on his solo album the year before.
  • The song “When Death Calls” is the only time someone else other than Iommi ever plays a guitar piece on a Black Sabbath album. Brian May plays the guitar solo for that track.

Tyr

Black Sabbath’s 1990 album was the followup to Headless Cross, and to me is an underrated gem.   The mix on this holds up better than Headless Cross did, IMO.  Still, it was the first to feature Neil Murray, and I’d love to see Cozy & Neil’s rhythm section get a boost from a remaster.  Possible extras:

  1. There were two live tracks from the CD/cassingle version of “Feels Good to Me” that came from the Russian gigs mentioned above.   Sabbath must have had some sort of access to get those.
  2. “Feels Good to Me” radio edit.  Shorter version of the song.
  3. Another possibility is the version of “Jerusalem” that appears on Tony Martin’s first solo album in 1992 (Back Where I Belong), but there might be some big rights issues using that. Be cool, though.
  4. Music Video: Feels Good to Me
  5. Perhaps the Tony Iommi track, “Miranha”.  It was recorded around this time.

NOTES:

  • Not that it matters, but this was released on my birthday in 1990.
  • On my site there are some notes from fans regarding the Norse mythology stuff connected with this album.  You’re welcome to reproduce them, I can sign a waiver again if need be.  You can see them here.

Cross Purposes

After the Dehumanizer reunion fell apart, Geezer Butler stayed on, and they brought back Tony Martin.  The album Cross Purposes was criminally under appreciated.  Was a great album, and contained the only album appearance of Bobby Rondinelli in Black Sabbath.    I saw them twice on this tour, and it was a great show.  Great album.  Really want to get this one back in print, and send some more love its way.  Possible extras:

  1. Studio track “What’s the Use?” – Was on the Japanese CD version of the album only.  It’s a bloody crime it is so obscure, it’s the best song on the album   DON’T YOU DARE LEAVE THIS OFF THE DELUXE EDITION – I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN!
  2. Music Video: The Hand that Rocks the Cradle
  3. The Cross Purposes Live CD as Disc 2?
  4. The Cross Purposes Live VHS as DVD/Disc 3?
  5. Live recordings from South America with Bill Ward?

NOTES:

  • There’s a long standing rumour that Eddie Van Halen either co-wrote or played on the song “Evil Eye”. If that really did happen, it would be nice to sort that out in the liner notes. There’s been so many “authoritative” answers one way or the other, I don’t think anyone knows what to believe about that anymore.
  • It would be nice (although not a surprise if not addressed) as to why the Scorpions used the exact same cover art for a single of theirs (“Send Me an Angel“) three years previous.

Cross Purposes Live

To me, this one is simple.  I can’t see it being re-released on its own.   The original release in 1995 saw a CD bundled with a VHS tape in a special discounted package.   I do not honestly see this coming out, it strikes me as a far better coupling with the Cross Purposes studio album, the idea is to make a large “Cross Purposes” set, where Disc 1 is the base Cross Purposes album plus extras, Disc 2 is the Cross Purposes Live CD remastered, and Disc 3 is the original VHS recording cleaned up and put on a DVD.

Now I know there’s been a few “re-releases” of the Cross Purposes live video over the years on DVD.  Some have claimed to be “remastered digitally”.  Technically putting a VHS tape on DVD counts as a digital remaster, so I wouldn’t put a lot of weight into those.   I will say this – whenever one of them popped up, I’d ALWAYS ask Iommi’s manager about it, and the response is the same every time.  ”Nope, don’t have anything to do with that”.   So they can *ALL* be considered unofficial.    That’s the reason I’d love for this to come out on a DVD finally from Iommi – to lay to rest all these shitty bootleg DVD’s I’ve seen over the years.

But still, a 3 Disc (2CD/1DVD) package of Cross Purposes & Cross Purposes Live together really seems the way to go to me.  If you don’t do that, then when do you use as extras?   Some other live stuff from the Cross Purposes tour, and then what for extras for Cross Purposes Live itself?   I honestly can’t see any other way to go about this.

Forbidden

…and then we come to Forbidden.   The one that mostly ranks last on people’s lists of “favorite Black Sabbath albums”.  While I don’t think there are any truly BAD Black Sabbath albums, this one isn’t for everyone.  As I’ve relayed before, the songs on this album hold a close personal connection for me due to a bad relationship I was in the summer this came out.  So Tony Martin’s lyrics spoke to me well.   Anyway, that’s not what this article is about.

If there’s one thing that people crap on the Forbidden album about (other than Ice-T’s cameo) is the mix.   This has as much talk about its released mix as the Born Again album does.   When I was talking with Tony’s manager about the Born Again remaster and how they lost the multi track master tapes (which is why that wasn’t remixed), I did inquire about the Forbidden album.

I was told that indeed Tony Iommi was planning a FULL REMIX of the Forbidden album for the Deluxe Edition, not just a remaster.   This is excellent news.  If there’s one thing that REALLY suffers on Forbidden, it’s Cozy Powell.    So I was quite overjoyed when I found out this was the plan.   With that in mind, it shoots to the top of the list of these IRS albums as the one I’m most interested in.    Anyway, here’s my list of suggested extras:

  1. “The Illusion of Power” alternate take – There’s a version with Tony Martin singing the part that Ice-T sings in the final version.  That’d be a good extra.
  2. “Loser Gets it All” – Japanese only track, also appeared on the 1996 compilation, “The Sabbath Stones”
  3. There has been a bootleg out there from this album in its earliest stages that is just instrumental.  All the songs are on there, but in earlier/demo form, and with no vocals.  Could be a possibility, but might not appeal to everyone.
  4. Music Video: Get a Grip

NOTES:

  • The song “The Illusion of Power” is the only time that someone other than the incumbent lead vocalist in the band sang on a Black Sabbath record. I don’t count Iommi, Butler, or Ward who also sang at times on a Sabbath song in the 70′s. That’s not what I was getting at – I meant a “guest vocalist”.
  • PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE in the booklet for this album, you need to get Iommi or Nicholls or Martin to detail everyone who is in the artwork on the cover. Nobody’s ever done that. It needs to be in there.

Now I asked on my forums what extras fans might have as to what could be released on these.  I did say “Keep it realistic – use the existing releases as a guideline”, and someone suggested the “Karlshamn Rock Festival 1995″ concert as a live bonus disc for Forbidden.  It had a great set list..

  • Ave Satani/Gates of Hell
  • Heaven and Hell Intro
  • Children of the Grave
  • Neon Knights
  • The Shining
  • The Wizard
  • War Pigs
  • Headless Cross
  • Guitar Solo/Rusty Angels
  • Bass Solo/When Death Calls
  • I Won’t Cry For You
  • The Mob Rules
  • Guitar Intro/Black Sabbath
  • Paranoid/Heaven and Hell reprise
  • Iron Man
  • Sabbath Bloody Sabbath

Still, with a new mix, and whatever goes on as extras, I’m looking forward to this one.

So where do we stand with all of this?

Why have these not come out yet?   There’s two easy answers.

  1. Tony’s cancer
  2. 13

I know some work had begun on these before the 11-11-11 press conference awhile ago.   I had an email telling me that Tony had begun work on the Forbidden remix, but it wasn’t completed, and I’m guessing with the knowledge Tony had of his own regarding what was likely upcoming regarding a reunion, one would expect the IRS Remasters weren’t going to be top priority.   My contacts at Universal back then told me that they couldn’t begin any work (one would presume the remastering being the biggest part of that) until a contract was signed, which to this day (Aug 24, 2013) has not happened.   So exactly how MUCH work was done on this project is unclear, I just know that some was done.

A couple of days before the 11-11-11  press conference happened, I was made aware of it given what my site is, and to expect a crush of traffic.  When I was told, the absolute FIRST THING I asked him in response was “Will this delay the Tony Martin/IRS era reissues”? I was told no, it is not directly delaying them. The two projects are independent of each other, I was informed. I was told the reason we haven’t gotten these out yet is because the remix of the Forbidden album hasn’t been completed. It has been worked on yes, but not completed.”

That was on November 8, 2011 I believe.    About eight weeks later, it was announced that Tony Iommi had cancer, and that things were being delayed.  I know a bit about cancer treatments, and they just sap the shit out of you in terms of energy.   So with an announced new album from Black Sabbath, and dealing with cancer treatments, that pretty much was IT for the IRS Remasters.   Tony is really not going to spend the time during cancer treatments working on these.   Look at it this way.   Tony could have spent that time working on the new Black Sabbath album, or working on re-releasing older, less successful (lets face it, that’s the case here) in terms of sales Black Sabbath albums.   I have a story to tell about that from the past that I think relates.

When Forbidden originally came out, I went to the local record store where I was living at the time, and looked for it. I was there like 30 mins after they opened in the morning. Couldn’t find it. Asked the person working about it, said it’s due out today, can you find it, I want to buy it. They looked in their computer, and the store had bloody ONE COPY ordered for sale. ONE! That’s all the entire store had on order. The guy said it hadn’t been sold, and I asked where it would be. Said probably still in the box from UPS waiting to be stocked. I made him go in the box and get it and bought it. Every time I was in any place that sold CD’s, I went and put Forbidden up in front in the section the Black Sabbath discs were at.  The reason I bring this up was if retail CD stores in 1995 were only ordering ONE copy of the album for release on day 1 (and this was before CD sales went in the toilet), we shouldn’t expect mega sales in 2014 (or whenver) of these. It never sold well in the first place, that we’ll be getting at all in a deluxe edition is a minor miracle, IMO.

Back to more current events..   The 13 album progressed, and it came out .  Black Sabbath went back out on tour, and when I asked again after the 13 tour got started, I was told that the IRS Remasters will definitely still happen.  But everything will have to be “over” with the 13 tour and all that.    That also doesn’t mean that the day the tour is over, we should see a press release announcing the IRS Remasters.   Tony will have to come off the tour, have a rest, and then will start looking into other projects again, one of which is this.  The key there is this is just ONE thing he’s involved in.  We don’t know what he’ll want to do once he comes off tour.

So to sum up, we pretty much need to wait until the 13 tour is all done, and everyone’s gone back home before any work can start up on this.  Long time visitors of my site know that I will NOT let the subject slide, so whenever there is new news on this, I will definitely pick it up and carry the news, because I want these to happen.

If they decided to do a “14″, or whatever they would call another album with Ozzy…   Then I suspect these will get delayed further.   But we’re getting a bit ahead of ourselves with that one.

Comments

  1. I’d sort of wandered away a bit from Sabbath in the mid 80s – but a friend brought over Headless Cross in ’89 or ’90, and I got pulled right back in. HC and TYR are my favorite non-Ozzy albums.

  2. Hi Joe,
    I have this strange idea these days:
    What about, Black Sabbath make an ep (or Lp much better), with songs from the 1980 – 1981 period of Black Sabbath – Ozzy Osbourne?
    Imagine, Ozzy singing Neon Knights, Heaven & Hell, and Iommi playing his way Crazy train and Mr. Crowley!
    Wouldn’t that be great?
    I hope you could pass this idea to them.
    Thanks
    Manolis

    • No, that would be a bad idea. Ozzy trying to sing Dio material just wouldn’t work. It’s seriously outside of his vocal range, it’s not funny.

    • Of course that would be INTERESTING, and I’d love any early demos feat. Ozzy on vocals from the “Heaven and Hell” sessions to surface, BUT: Joe is absolutely right to say that Ronnie’s melody lines were seriously outside of Ozzy’s vocal range. f you check out some of Sabbath’s 2013 live shows, you’ll probably hear that his voice and hearing is now even much worse than before. Sometimes he sings complete songs out of key. I am a huge fan of Ozzy’s singing in Black Sabbath in the first half of the 1970ies; but if anybody wants Ozzy to sound good in 2013 or later, they’ll have to fake it somehow technically. Well, and if you fake it somehow anyway, you rather might ask a good singer to do it instead of Ozzy. But then, the original singer was Ronnie (RIP!), so why would anybody want a Sabbath album that was sung by him completely re-done in the first place? Finally, if I were in Wendy Dio’s position, I would declare war against Iommi if he announced such a project.

  3. Fine news, and good choices for bonus tracks. Especially the version of “The illusion Of Power” WITHOUT ICE-T is really interesting, as well as the instrumental version of that album. Although it is far not my favourite album – it’s part of BS history.

    I think “Cross Purposes – Live” should be a standalone edition. Because the audio does NOT fit on 1 CD, if it gets released in full. The VHS is 87 minutes long. Please release the full version also on audio 2CD.
    BTW. One song is missing from the show. “Children Of The Sea” was played, but not released, neither on CD nor video. Also some minutes of the drum solo are missing.

    But to be honest it’s a pity, that one have to ask the fans what could be found. Please Mr. Iommi (or IRS or whoever) open your archives – there must be enough – which was NEVER released in any form before.

    • I strongly agree that “Cross Purposes – Live” should be released as 2-CD, including all songs that were released on the video plus (if possible) “Children of the Sea” and the complete drum solo.

      And I even more strongly support the demand to release something previously unreleased. Rather than only re-releasing all the quite well-known stuff that has been available in some or other form, I’d appreciate if Sabbath came up with some real rarities.

      A few suggestions:

      STUDIO DEMOS
      1990-02-?? “TYR” demos incl. “The Sabbath Stones” & “Jerusalem” (Available on bootlegs, but all available silver-CD and CDR versions seem to be MP3-sourced)
      1991-??-?? “Dehumanizer” rehearsals & demos with Tony Martin on vocals (Former website Sabbathlive.com mentioned the possibility that these exist)
      1995-05-?? “Forbidden” outtakes (3 songs. According to former website Sabbathlive.com, there is a Spanish collector who has these 3 unreleased songs. Anyway, Tony Iommi himself should have these too – why not release them?)

      LIVE RECORDINGS
      1989-09-09 Live at Hammersmith Odeon, London (Complete PRO recording. Mentioned on former website Sabbathlive.com)
      1989-09-10 Live at Hammersmith Odeon, London (Complete PRO recording. Mentioned on former website Sabbathlive.com)
      1989-09-24 Live at Summer Arena, Wien (Vienna) (Complete soundboard recording, available as bootleg)
      1989-10-19 Live at Koseinenkin (Festival) Hall, Osaka (Soundboard recording, available as bootleg)
      1995-07-07 Live at Tweeter Center, Tinley Park (Soundboard recording, available as bootleg)
      1995-09-09 Live at Hala Arena, Poznan (FM recording, available as bootleg)

      LIVE VIDEOS
      1994-02-09 Live at Toad’s Place, New Haven (PRO VIDEO)
      1995-12-14 Live at Phoebus Amphitheater Complex, Bangkok (PRO VIDEO)
      1995-11-16 Live at Olympic Gymnastics Arena, Seoul (complete PRO VIDEO. A Korean collector claims to own this)

      … and if there is other stuff I’ve never heard about – even better!

    • DENNIS Davis says:

      What about just releasing every single Black Sabbath album in the catalog no matter who sang on it and no matter what the line up is just release every single one in one big package. Good idea or no

  4. I know you’ll just brush this off Joe but I’d like to see YOU or someone like you at the very least work as a consultant on these reissues. Often times fans, or superfans as I guess you’d be labeled have more knowledge of things than the actual artists. I mean I’ve read where artists forgot about stuff they released. And you sure have some fine ideas for the reissues. I’ve seen so many missed opportunities on reissues that it’d be nice to see these get done correctly. While I certainly consider myself a “true” fan I had little interest in these when they came out originally it’s actually been your enthusiasm for them that has gotten me to give them a second chance so anyway when these come out it will be my first time owning them and it would be sweet to just be able to buy them once.

    • Well.. Look through the credits. My name is in a couple of them. I’ve already done what you said with some past releases (Eternal Idol, Born Again, Seventh Star), and I’ve already done some consultant type stuff on the IRS ones (that’s what my list of possibilities is – I sent the same notes to the label – didn’t I say that?). But the bottom line is that all of the extras are there because Iommi approved them. I did suggest the Tony Martin recordings for the Dehumanizer deluxe edition, but it was shot down. So we can suggest whatever we want, but there’s two things in play. First, Iommi/Sabbath has to have legal rights to the thing in question. Second, Iommi has to want to do it, and that one is the bigger issue.

      We can want it, we can even have it as a bootleg, but if it’s not available legally to Iommi (as bootlegs frequently aren’t) and if he doesn’t have acceptable enough quality in the sound department, then he’s not going for it.

      What I would like to see is some disconnected bonus set, with all the oddballs like Jeff Fenholt, Ron Keel, & Dave Donato demos, plus the TOny Martin Dehumanizer stuff. Maybe some of the session work from the 2001 attempt at making a Black Sabbath album.

      Look at it this way. There’s several discs of Dehumanizer material available on the Reincarnation bootleg, and NONE of it was used on the Dehumanizer DE. Granted, Ronnie had just died, so I think that had something to do with it, but Tony isn’t going to just release everything. He has to WANT to do it.

      • Thanks for the hint, I forgot about the rights issues with bootlegs. Anyway, the “Reincarnation” silver-bootleg is completely MP3-sourced (or remastered in a way that makes it sound and look like it were MP3-sourced). Even if Iommi had the rights (which he probably hadn’t, as you rightly point out), any reputably sound professional would probably have discouraged him from releasing anything from “Reincarnation”.

      • Hey Joe,

        again, thanks for all your great work here. Your site is my most important source of info about Black Sabbath related issues since Sabbathlive went offline. I am happy to hear that these Deluxe Editions can be expexted to happen some day, even if it’s unclear when. Only recently I discovered your timeslines and really enjoyed reading them, and there were indeed things included that I didn’t know about.

        I noticed that in your discussion of possible bonus material for the “Forbidden” Deluxe Edition you didn’t mention the 3 Forbidden outtakes that I suggested to be included in my former comment. Since, according to Sabbathlive, George Berk confirmed he had heard a sample, I assume these do exist. However, I guess you had your reasons not to mention them. Anything you know about these that made you ignore them in your discussion?

        Thanks again and best,
        Linda

  5. Mauricio Leite says:

    Joe,

    It was me who suggested the Karlshamn Rock Festival 1995 on the forums as a bonus for the Forbidden Deluxe. It’s great to know you considered it, it’s a hell of a live set and performance was awesome.

    I really hope they have those recordings and that they put this out when the times is right.

  6. Chad Hallman says:

    I read a comment made by Geezer saying: “I’m not playing to my standards” or “i don’t think i’m playing to my standards”? & “This may be the last tour”. ? I sent Geezer a message telling him ” Never Say Die” my friend. I understand the age thing & all that, but I wouldn’t say calling it quits is in the future. I certainly hope not!
    I say at least do one more album “WITH BILL WARD” and another tour, maybe a smaller tour to lessen the load on the guys, and then do what they want to do. I believe that they still have alot of drive in them yet depsite their age. Hell, Ozzy runs 5 miles a day! I can’t do that! Not saying I’m not healthy, but geez a 64+ old guy running 5 miles a day?
    Waiting for the reissues & etc. I’m sure they will all turn out great ! And will keep thoughts and prayers for Tony & him kicking cancers ass! And the same thoughts and prayers for one more Black Sabbath album with Bill Ward. Which brings me tomention that everytime there is a comment or what have you on Bill Ward, it’s a different damned story! I say just cut the crap & do the album! If you all are mates as you all keep saying & that you love each other like brothers, then why be the way you are being & all that?

  7. Thank you so much for the info Joe, as always.

  8. I’d love these disc to get some attention in some form or fashion. Such great music. I’d Love to see a Black Sabbath “Tony Martin Years” box set. A real box set with lots of extras and goodies. It is certainly deserved. Not only is the music great but in addition to the 2 Tony’s you got big name musicians on these disc. Eric Singer, Bob Daisley, Geezer Butler, Bobby Rondinelli, Cozy Powell and Neil Murray.

    I actually like the Forbidden album A LOT. Rusty Angels, Get A Grip, Guilty as Hell and the Title track all Rock. Some people have a hard time getting past the opening track with ICE- T even though it’s still a good song too.

    And by the way I thought “Rules of Hell” was a huge disappointment. Dio deserves a much better Box set with lots of extras and goodies and a separate book with lots of photos. Rules of Hell was pretty much the Dio discs just put in a “Small” box.

  9. Hey Joe, do you think the audio portion of Cross Purposes Live would have to be 2 CDs to cover the complete concert? I know the original CD version was lacking “Anno Mundi”, which was part of the video program. However I think maximum CD play times have increased by a few minutes since the early ’90s. Either way, I’d definitely like to see a CD re-release include the complete video program on audio also.

  10. Why? Some of the music is good but the voice ( don´t know what to call it ) destroy it all. Was at the Forbidden-tour in Göteborg, Sweden. Tony, Bobby and Neil was good but Neil did not fit with Tony. Tony M. on the other hand… no voice – can´t sing! Never could – never will!

    • I have listened to uncountable live recordings from all Black Sabbath tours, and I fully agree that Tony Martin had serious voice problems on the 1994 and still on the 1995 live tour. I would even argue (and to be sure – in contrast to you, I really like Tony Martin’s voice) that his ability as a live singer was on its peak as early as 1987. In 1989, he already started to modify many melody lines during the tour, even of his own songs, in order to avoid some of the higher notes. On the other hand, Tony Martin NEVER sings out of key (like Ozzy regularly does, especially in the 2012 and 2013 shows) – he always manages to change the melody lines in such a way as to become able to sing them, even though the result may still tend to sound a bit short-winded. His voice problems do affect the “Cross Purposes – Live” album discussed here – the 1994 tour was Tony Martin’s worst ever, and I cannot see why they picked this tour, of all the tours with him, to record a live album. I still like the album, but Tony Martin’s performance is definitely not up to his standard. Again, even though I like Ozzy’s voice a lot as well (in a very different way), I must say that Ozzy is technically a much worse live singer than Tony Martin. Ozzy has never been able to adjust the melody lines to his weakening abilities, as Tony does; when he gets into trouble with his voice during a live show (and he regularly does), his voice breaks completely; and even when he still has his voice, he often sings completely out of key. If you don’t believe this, I recommend to compare Ozzy’s singing on the official “Reunion” live release to the unofficial bootlegs of the same show. You will have to notice that most of the singing has been re-done in the studio! By the way, it may also be interesting to note that Tony Martin NEVER (not even in 1994) had any problems singing Ozzy’s songs. The reason being that those are technically much easier to sing than the Dio (RIP) and Tony Martin era stuff. Ozzy would NEVER be able to sing any Tony Martin song live – simply because Tony Martin’s songs are much more difficult to sing.

      Anyway, what I do not understand is how you seem to relate these issues to all the albums (4 of them being studio albums) discussed here. I mean, if you simply dislike Tony Martin’s voice – all right, this is just a matter of taste, and it makes no sense to start a fight about that. But technically, Tony Martin sings just great on all 4 studio albums we are talking about. It is, of course, a completely different kind of music compared to the Ozzy era – and I definitely find the Ozzy (until 1978) much more innovative than the Tony Martin era. But your were talking about Tony Martin’s singing abilities, and here I don’t get your point.

    • Your comments about Martin’s voice doesn’s deserve a reply. So, let us pretend Ozzy is such a great vocalist…. better than Dio, Martin, Gillan, Gillen, Hughes and Gillan. Sometimes the best answer to some comments is being sarcastic…. ok? Ozzy is the best vocalist in the world and don’t forget Sharon…
      joe, I just can’t stand some very strange opinions…. they just don’t fit reality….

      Peace…!!!

  11. John Miller says:

    I’m sorry, but the Tony Martin era is so inferior compared to everything else released under the Black Sabbath banner, it’s not funny. Martin is not the worst singer I have ever heard, by any stretch of the imagination, and there are several bands I could think of where his vocal style would fit in nicely. However, apart from a few tracks, my favourite being “Virtual Death”, Tony Martin was never the man for Sabbath. I saw the Martin, Murray, Powell and Iommi line-up in Manchester, and it was the vocals that ruined the gig for me. I also saw the Gillan, Bevan, Butler, Iommi line-up and they were great. However I saw the Ozzy fronted line-up, and Dio also, and although very different, they were in a different class. I don’t mean any disrespect to Tony Martin, as Iommi obviously saw something in him that perhaps nobody else did, but I have to admit struggling with these albums, compared to the rest, even “Seventh Star” is way superior to the Martin era releases. Of course this is just my opinion, and no doubt I will be shot down, but when the albums are released again, as a life-long fan, I will buy them, because even though they are not my favourite albums, they are still way better than anything else out there!

    • Robert Cam says:

      I respect your opinion. However, I can’t agree…. Tony Martin is an excellent vocalist and musician. Listen to Anno Mundi, The Sabbath Stones, Eternal Idol, Nightmare, The Shining and even Bitter Sweet from his solo album Scream. People normally tend to be very unfair with the musicians who played with Tony Iommi while he was the only member of Sabbath…. and this is so sad… Forgive me, it is only my opinion….

      Peace and Love…!!!

  12. Another possible extra for the TYR deluxe would be the instrumental track “Miranha” which featured Iommi on guitar and Cozy Powell on drums. It came out in early 1990 on a Guitar anthology and thus is probably something not in a lot of people’s collections. Not an earth-shattering track but it was probably done as a warm up to the TYR sessions.

  13. I am very exited to here this. I don’t think of Tony Martin as being the best vocalist with Sabbath but I love the albums of this era. Songs like When Death Calls, Nightwing, Feels Good to Me, Kiss of Death. I have probably played Cross Purposes and Forbidden more than most of the Ozzy albums. Everytime I here these songs I still grit my teeth and get bumps on my arms. As far as I am concerned getting back with Ozzy after DIO… and no Bill Ward, was just a slap in the face. Also I have watched many live videos from this era including the Karlshamn Rock Festival 1995 and Tony Iommi just seemed much more happy than I have ever seen him actually live with Ozzy any time in the past. But this is just my opinion.

  14. hey joe.
    surprise, surprise: tyr was my first sabbath album ever. i was 15!!!! and i dont forget that moment, when i bought that tape. i loved it than and still love it soooooooooo much. one of my favourites, yeahhh! heaven in black, the sabbath stone or anno mundi – great stuff!!! thats why i would enjoy a deluxe edition, not only tyr but all the tony martin stuff. tony is a great singer and he deserves such an honour!

    • Tony Martin is such a great singer, musician and person. You were 15 when you had the first contact with Sabbath and you loved the album. My first contatct with Sabbath was listening to Neon knights ( live evil version) and I just fell in love with the band from that moment onwards. There are great songs on this album, like Anno Mundi, Sabbath Stones and Valhala… It’s so great to read respectful comments about the albums recorded while Tony was the only original member. Guys, you have to bear in mind forever… Sabbath is Iommi and Iommi is Sabbath… Forgive me, Tony Martin is much better than Ozzy, it’s only my opinion….

      Peace and Love…!!!

  15. I honestly can’t see these albums, great as some of them are, being big sellers individually. If I’m Tony Iommi, and let’s be clear – I’m not, I’d package these all together, make them apart of some “Lost Sabbath” package and rake in the bucks that way. As Joe mentioned above, Forbidden was a dud in 1995. A remix and remaster won’t change that in 2013, 2014 or whenever it comes out. Tony Martin’s era never sold well here in the States, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Tony Iommi chose to go the whole package route, toss in all those juicy extras, a couple DVDs, charge above market value for it and do it while Sabbath is still fresh in people’s minds. Just my two cents.

  16. Back on June 29, 2009, Universal started releasing Deluxe Editions of the Black Sabbath catalogue, starting with the original album in 1970. They worked through the discography, and released all the studio albums up through “The Eternal Idol” (plus Dehumanizer).

    DID I MISS SOMETHING?? THIS SAYS THEY RELEASED ALL THE STUDIO ALBUMS THROUGH ETERNAL IDOL— IVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF ANYTHING FROM THE OZZY ERA AFTER MASTER OF REALITY

    • Yes, they did remaster all Ozzy albums (easy to find on Amazon), but they didn’t add any extra tracks.

    • Myles Ives says:

      Vol 4, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabotage, Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die! all were re-released as digipacks remastered instead of Deluxe Editions.

    • Josh Schwartz says:

      These were not released in the US, and the remasteres for Vol. 4 – Never Say Die are all single discs with no bonus tracks. I didn’t realize they were out for a while myself, but I think that’s just because they got less press because they didn’t have any rare or previously unreleased bonus tracks. I promise you they do exist, I have them all here at my house!

  17. Love to see these happen when the “13″ Tour ends and Tony has time to rest. I don’t see another Ozzy album happening as not to long ago I read that Geezer Butler said he don’t see another album happening and felt he was getting too old and tired to continue. If that’s the case I can see these Martin era albums getting the DE treatments.

  18. Johan Dojjander says:

    If “Miranha” would be considered as extra material, maybe Tony Iommi´s “Wonderful land” would be of interest too? Not that it really fits in, but placed on a bonus CD it works better. “Wonderful land” is a song by The Shadows and Tony Iommi´s version of the song was released in 1996 on an album called “Twang – a tribute to The Shadows”.

    It has a Black Sabbath vibe at some points and the line-up apart from Tony Iommi is Neil Murray (bass), Cozy Powell (drums) and Don Airey (keyboards).

  19. Profusion says:

    Thanks, Joe. You’re doing the lord’s work in pushing to get these albums re-released properly. Or maybe it’s the devil’s work. :)

    As for the negative comments about Tony Martin, I’ll just have to disagree. He’s not the same as Dio in his prime, but he’s a fantastic singer in his own right. Yes, his voice perhaps didn’t hold up to the rigors of touring, but he still sounded great when I saw Sabbath on the Cross Purposes tour. He supposedly had a cold the night that the show for CP Live was recorded, so you can’t use that as an exemplar of his abilities in 1994.

    Given the realities of these archival releases, I’d vote to have the CP Live material folded into a CP deluxe release. There’s no way that anyone is going to go back to the source material and expand it to the full show for either the CD or the DVD–that would cost way too much money, assuming the source tapes are even still in existence. The 3-disc deluxe package that Joe describes would be perfect for this release.

  20. Ted Sallis says:

    Thanks Joe for the as usual very detailed – bordering on exhaustive – info. re. the above-named albums which still await deluxe edition releases. As is somewhat well known in this site, I don’t consider the ‘Tony Martin’ albums to be Black Sabbath releases and won’t be purchasing deluxe editions of them, but for those who are looking forward to them, hopefully you’re all in for a treat that won’t disappoint when they come out.

    Ted

  21. “Your site is my most important source of info about Black Sabbath related issues”

    I agree with this

    also

    “you need to get Iommi or Nicholls or Martin to detail everyone who is in the artwork on the cover”

    I am rather ashamed to say I’d never really paid much attention to Forbidden’s cover but it is kinda cool – thanks for pointing it out!

  22. Hi Joe, Just a quickie. Would you be willing/able to get in touch with Tony (Martin) and conduct an in-depth interview? There’s one on youtube in a pub , and occasional snippets here and there, but nothing with any real depth. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on ’13′, the chances of a Tony Martin-era reunion tour/album, his career as a whole, his plans for the future, and what happened when he met Dio (the silent clip on youtube), amongst other things. It seems his profile isn’t sufficient to warrant Classic Rock or anyone else doing so themselves (I really dislike Classic Rock by the way. Every month there’s another 8 pages on what Phil Lynott had for breakfast in 1973, or ANOTHER E.L.O retrospective – they gave Dio minor article space, even after his passing). Given the frankly-overdue recognition Tony’s contributions to the Sabbath legend are now receiving, I think it would be awesome for the best Black Sabbath site (truth, not blowing smoke) on the net to reach out to Tony and grab some official comments. I think it would be really nice for him, personally, to be treated as ‘part of the family’ so to speak. And I think seeing our comments about his time in Sabbath would bring a richly-deserved smile to his face.

  23. Well Joe, at least you got the ear(s) of the people that did the bonus tracks on the previous Universal reissues….they REALLY messed up on the “Heaven And Hell” reissue by putting on the single version of the title track live from the “Neon Knights” single (which was just a simple fade in the middle) as well as the full version of the SAME performance later on the disc (which “War Pigs” was sacrificied for,as the only remaining track from the Hartford KBFH,not counting the full show on bootleg….which may or may not have been quite up to the sound quality required?)!
    They’ve also kind of blown it with “Seventh Star”….they should’ve used the KBFH show from Texas with Ray,instead of that BBC Hammersmith show (and if they had to use that,why such a horrible sound quality?! My original cassette from way back then on the trading circuit even sounded better than what they had?! :)
    “Born Again” could’ve made up for the lost masters by putting on the original demos (which may or may not be sped up or brought down for the finished version?)….I like the sound of them a little bit more too,but that’s just a preference.
    I’ve also had the feeling that any of the IRS stuff may never be released anyway,just because the labels and (maybe to some extent?!) band member(s :) may just simply feel that there’s not enough interest among the common folk (YES….the same fanbase who are hailing “13″ as a CLASSIC?! :)

  24. Getting the Deluxe Editons of the Martin years would be great, but they only did Deluxe Edtions for the 1st three Ozzy albums. It would be nice to get the rest of the Ozzy years done as well…not just remasters, but 2discers.

  25. Paul Hudson says:

    So glad these are getting the Deluxe treatment. The Tony Martin era should not be ignored by the Sabbath camp or fans. I prefer Martin than Dio but all had an impact on the Black Sabbath story. Each incarnation brought new fans and new sounds but all played their part and were bricks that built ‘The Black Sabbath House of Rock’.

  26. There is a fantastic bootleg called Live in Viena, recorded during the Headless Cross album. The Neon Knights version is pretty awesome… Listen to it…!!!

    Peace and Love…!!!

  27. Metalrockx says:

    I have an excellent show for the Headless Cross reissue:

    - Black Sabbath: Manchester Crossing (Manchester 9/9/1989) A+

    The Gates Of Hell – Headless Cross/Neon Knights/Children Of The Sea/Die Young/Iron Man/When Death Calls/War Pigs/Heaven And Hell/Paranoid

  28. Cheers Joe for pushing these very under rated albums for a possible re-release! They are criminally neglected albums & starting at the superb Eternal Idol, Tony Martin was a fine vocalist indeed! I rate these albums highly to any Sabbath fans I know, some have owned them from the original early disc’s like I do, some don’t like it that much, but each to their own!
    Forbidden is the only album I don’t get into & maybe in hindsight, Iommi should have pulled the plug when Geezer left after the wonderful Cross Purposes tour! There are a couple of decent songs on that Forbidden album though. Cheers.

  29. @ Joe: Funny thing, that I just realized but there’s some tiny bit of remastering of the Martin era already done, as the Who Cares album release from 2012 includes Anno Mundi. The liner notes state, that the track was remastered in June 2012 by Eike Freese.
    Would be interesting to know, what involvement Iommi had in this release and how ample this remastering was.

    • When I first saw the track listing before the album came out, the first thing I did was email Tony’s manager and inquired as to whether or not the version of Anno Mundi was remastered at all. He came back and said no, that no remastering work was done on it.

  30. Joe, Why the hell would you want Tonys solo track on a Black Sabbath release? Makes no sense.
    2. Why the hell are you pushing for Cross Purposes to bundle the live album with it? also makes no sense. Stop it.

  31. Adrian Dawson says:

    I was in the Alliance with Tony Martin prior to him joining Black Sabbath, he was, and still is one of the most talented writers and vocalist I have had the privilege of working with, regardless of his involvement with Sabbath, and is responsible for more than the Sabbath press machine will ever admit to. Love you Tony X

  32. Headless Cross bonus:
    Cloak and Dagger, HH 7″ edit on disc 1
    Full Moscow concert from Feels Good to Me single

    Tyr bonuses “Feels good to me” 7″ edit on disc 1
    concert, or demos on disc 2

    Cross Purposes
    What’s the use on disc 1
    Cross Purposes Live concert on DVD, with Children of the Sea, if that survived

    Fprbidden:
    japan bonsu track
    and concert or demos on second disc.

    This is basically everything you need to have on the deluxes.

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